Iron Heroes...is it really different from core D&D?

[DonTadow]

Thank you for the clarity you've managed to provide, iwatt.

It has become apparent that there is some question about the default level of magic in Iron Heroes. So, I shall rephrase slightly.

Iron Heroes is a low PC magic game.

Magic fills the implied world of Iron Heroes as much as, or even more than, it fills the default world of D&D. The difference is that in D&D, all magical things doable by mosters, extra-planar creatures and villains is equally doable by PCs; in Iron Heroes implied, the vast majority of magical effects achievable by NPCs cannot be replicated by PCs.

All (RAW) Iron Heroes know three facts about magic.
1) Magic is real. Monsters, evil wizards, ancient civilizations and sometimes even allies (or the hero himself) have and use magic spells and abilities.
2) Magic is powerful. Magic bolts can blast through the heaviest armor as if it were paper. Magic can cause walls to appear from thin air, reanimate the dead, inflict or restore wounds, summon monsters from other worlds and even raise the dead.
3) Magic is out to get them. 90% of the magic in the world belongs to evil wizards, demons, devils, monsters and other inhuman creatures that will gladly kill the heroes. It can summon, or create, a multitude of monsters, generate searing blasts of powerful flames / cold / lightning / acid; it can wither and shrink the most powerful of warriors, take control of a person's mind and actions, and is the source of most of the major threats to hamlets, towns, cities, nations and even the world.

Magic is very much present in Iron Heroes. It is simply not found, much, in the hands of the players.


DonTadow, when you are ready to post mature and reasoned arguments, as opposed to ad hominem arguments, then I shall be willing to reply to any specific points you may have.

Which is why I question if you've read the books and supplement from front to back. NO dis but it very much is in the hands of pcs. the magic is chaotic in such a world, but its no more different than the wild magic rules of Faerun (especially during 2nd edition). I guess htats why I take offense that the misleading statements about (pcs not being able to wield magic) is false.

There are supplements by the publisher that support it. The author supports it. Fans support it. I guess I am just not sure where the info that supports your claim comes from. Sure if you do not want to insistute magic into your campaign it is up to you, but it is certainly not the intended way of Iron Heroes.

As a matter of fact, if you read the Mastering Iron Heroes book, you'll read a lenghty chapter about how to put magic into a campaign. You'll read how the classes balance with typical 3.5 heroes.
The only thing Iron heroes does is eliminate pcs need for magic items and buffs. So if I take a n iron hero character and put him up with a fully equpped 3.5 character they would be equivalent. If i take the arcanist and put him with a sorceror they will be equivalent. thus I can take either 3.5 or iron hereos characters, put them in a game and it works great (as it has with me for a year now).

If you can' not do it fine, but do not blame it on the system because there are far too many supplements that explain, disect and show individuals how its done.

 

[iwatt]

As a matter of fact, if you read the Mastering Iron Heroes book, you'll read a lenghty chapter about how to put magic into a campaign.

Well you ca reference the Magic chapter first.

Magic items are, in essence, raw magical power
merged with the intellect of an outsider and given
physical form. On one hand, they exist as stable
entities within reality. This trait allows them to produce magical
effects that are more reliable than spells. On the other
hand, the intellect contained within a magic item is almost
invariably sinister, unpredictable, and domineering.

This is the RAW magic from IHs. The chapter has a side bar in page 73, mentioning that imported weapons should incorporate drawbacks to keep PCs not reliant on magic.

You also speak of the conversion appendix:

IMPORTING SPELLCASTERS
When incorporating a spellcasting class into Iron Heroes, you
must increase the save DCs of its spells and account for its
loss of magic items.

plus

The spellcasting classes work best as villains and powerful
NPCs, particularly if they’re members of strange, alien races
who have a natural affinity for the magical arts. You can also
apply them to weaker outsiders and elementals to give them
expanded abilities.

All I see in this conversion variant is that using other spellcasting classes is recomended mostly for NPCs, and that magic items shoudl be removed.


You also say :

There are supplements by the publisher that support it. The author supports it. Fans support it.

The beastiary is for opponents, so this hold to VGHs statement that IH is low PC magic.
The author himself said that the RAW arcanist was rushed, and the easiest fix was probably porting in the Warlock with some modifications. The fans themselves have developed so many magic variants, I have no idea what you mean with "fan support". If you check most of the Arcanist variants out there, most of them remove the negative results for a botched casting (i.e increasing the T-rex size). Some go with skill based magic (BCCS or TrueSorcery), others with stress tokens (Mac), the warlock conversion (Huiyin), and some even do without the D&D schools of magic whatsoever (Soulmage). The less intrusive of all variants (Jeremy Puckett's) does a complete rebalancing of the conjuration school, aknowledged as the prime culprit in the unbalance of schools.

Seriously Don Tadow, you keep giving these vague references for evidence. I went ahead and checked them. I feel the burden of proof is on you, and not the other way around

 

[DonTadow]

Well you ca reference the Magic chapter first.



This is the RAW magic from IHs. The chapter has a side bar in page 73, mentioning that imported weapons should incorporate drawbacks to keep PCs not reliant on magic.

You also speak of the conversion appendix:



plus



All I see in this conversion variant is that using other spellcasting classes is recomended mostly for NPCs, and that magic items shoudl be removed.


You also say :


The beastiary is for opponents, so this hold to VGHs statement that IH is low PC magic.
The author himself said that the RAW arcanist was rushed, and the easiest fix was probably porting in the Warlock with some modifications. The fans themselves have developed so many magic variants, I have no idea what you mean with "fan support". If you check most of the Arcanist variants out there, most of them remove the negative results for a botched casting (i.e increasing the T-rex size). Some go with skill based magic (BCCS or TrueSorcery), others with stress tokens (Mac), the warlock conversion (Huiyin), and some even do without the D&D schools of magic whatsoever (Soulmage). The less intrusive of all variants (Jeremy Puckett's) does a complete rebalancing of the conjuration school, aknowledged as the prime culprit in the unbalance of schools.

Seriously Don Tadow, you keep giving these vague references for evidence. I went ahead and checked them. I feel the burden of proof is on you, and not the other way around

If by vague you mean the books that define the system, then yeah I"m being vague. Oddly though your own references (though short considering you missed about 30 pages more stuff from the books) prove my point. Even with what you mention the Mike mearls does not restrict iron heroes to low or no magic campaign. Instead he emphasies the point on no magic items (which you point out and I pointed out a few statements ago).

You got to love when people pull out one sentence of a three page conversion. You failed to mention how easily the author still says it is to put 3.5 classes side by side with iron heroes classes. And how he notes that pcs can still use magic classes right alongside iron heroes classes. Of course you are free to edit the book however you like.

My point is how the system is initially designed and what it is designed to do. Oddly enough it is you whom stretches the meaning of a few words. Case in point, you guys take a sentence and try to stretch it to mean a bane for 3.5 magic classes when the remaining paragrah and section state otherwise.

 

[iwatt]

You got to love when people pull out one sentence of a three page conversion.

You got to love when someone keeps arguing without checking his facts. The conversion in MIH is 2 pages (one and a half if you consider the artwork). Now that is a pedantic point, but at least it's factual.

You failed to mention how easily the author still says it is to put 3.5 classes side by side with iron heroes classes.

Once agian, I'll quote the relevant passages.

CLASSES
The key characteristic of Iron Heroes is that it drops magic
items as an important measure of a character’s power. Some
other fantasy games do this, too, but Iron Heroes also keeps
everything balanced against the core monster books. The
characters must be balanced against chimeras, dragons,
demons, and everything else.
This creates a gap in power between Iron Heroes classes
and those drawn from other d20 System games. Generally
speaking, an Iron Heroes character can easily defeat a fantasy
character from a different game who doesn’t have an appropriate
load of magic items. Thus, it’s generally a bad idea to
shift Iron Heroes classes to other games.
Luckily, the reverse is not true. While the warrior-type
classes, such as fighter, paladin, ranger, and barbarian, are
outmatched by their Iron Heroes counterparts, the spellcasting
classes make excellent additions as villain classes. Clerics,
wizards, druids, and sorcerers have the magical firepower
needed to pose a threat.

Emphasis mine of course. The conversion makes an explicit point that they should be used as villain classes.

And how he notes that pcs can still use magic classes right alongside iron heroes classes.

Exactly were does Mearls say this. I've combed the books for those references, but all I find is this:

OTHER SUBSYSTEMS
Most Iron Heroes subsystems can be used in their entirety in
d20 System-compatible games. If you feel like playing around
with them, feel free to pull the mechanics for combat and
skill challenges, stunts, and more right into your game, and
have fun with them.
The one subsystem that will need a little tinkering is the
trait system. Allow human characters to take two traits in
exchange for dropping the racial bonuses they normally gain
(a bonus feat, +4 skill ranks at 1st level, and +1 skill rank per
level).
Note that Iron Heroes’ magic system is less powerful than
the standard d20 magic system. If you want to use it in your
game, bring the arcanist class along with it. This magic system’s
abilities are designed to work with the arcanist, but
they are not effective with the standard wizard, sorcerer or
cleric (or greenbond, mage blade, magister, or witch).

Which I don't exactly think proves you're point.

Of course you are free to edit the book however you like.

Exactly were have I edited the book?

 

[ValhallaGH]

So, you're saying that houserules (fan support) and guidelines on making houserules (conversion guidrlines) prove that the Rules As Written Iron Heroes is not low PC magic.

...

I can houserule that first level Fighters get 10 feats, 3000 hp, and two weapon fighting with 20 foot greatswords that have reach of four squares in every direction. This in no way affects the RAW D&D Fighter.

Do you see the corollary?


Side note. I own, have read through, and regularly use all three Iron Heroes books while running my current IH campaign. I am aware of the many rules changes, such as the inability to do anything other than make a normal melee attack on an attack of oportunity, as well as the conversion guidelines and their contents. You can stop trying to sum up 30 pages with language that it just doesn't contain. You can also stop with the "If you'd read the books" cracks as they are infantile and likely to cause me to ignore you, again.

 

[DonTadow]

So, you're saying that houserules (fan support) and guidelines on making houserules (conversion guidrlines) prove that the Rules As Written Iron Heroes is not low PC magic.

...

I can houserule that first level Fighters get 10 feats, 3000 hp, and two weapon fighting with 20 foot greatswords that have reach of four squares in every direction. This in no way affects the RAW D&D Fighter.

Do you see the corollary?


Side note. I own, have read through, and regularly use all three Iron Heroes books while running my current IH campaign. I am aware of the many rules changes, such as the inability to do anything other than make a normal melee attack on an attack of oportunity, as well as the conversion guidelines and their contents. You can stop trying to sum up 30 pages with language that it just doesn't contain. You can also stop with the "If you'd read the books" cracks as they are infantile and likely to cause me to ignore you, again.

I'm sorry, you're forcing me to go to quotes and such and are making up things in the book that arent there. The book never says that its a low magic only setting. The book emphasizes in many points its a high fantasy game. I just think that that accusation is hillarious considering I'm quoting the exact wording of the book and youre admitedly assigning your own definition to it. Run your game the way you wish but don't push your definition against waht the text says.

That and I"m talking about both core Iron Heroes books, but primarily those.

The key characteristic of Iron Heroes is that it drops magic
items as an important measure of a character’s power. Some
other fantasy games do this, too, but Iron Heroes also keeps
everything balanced against the core monster books. The
characters must be balanced against chimeras, dragons,
demons, and everything else.
This creates a gap in power between Iron Heroes classes
and those drawn from other d20 System games. Generally
speaking, an Iron Heroes character can easily defeat a fantasy
character from a different game who doesn’t have an appropriate
load of magic items. Thus, it’s generally a bad idea to
shift Iron Heroes classes to other games.
Luckily, the reverse is not true. While the warrior-type
classes, such as fighter, paladin, ranger, and barbarian, are
outmatched by their Iron Heroes counterparts, the spellcasting
classes make excellent additions as villain classes. Clerics,
wizards, druids, and sorcerers have the magical firepower
needed to pose a threat.

To understand the context, so long as a sorceror or a mage has magic items then they are balanced. By 3.5 rules those characters need the magic items to balance themselves out. The book suggests (and yes that is a suggestion) that they work better as villian classes but it does not restrict it to that. As a matter of fact it goes on to give conversion details that would be more pertanant to a player than a DM.

 

[Aus_Snow]

The book suggests [. . .] that they work better as villian classes

Now, why would that be, I wonder.

As a matter of fact it goes on to give conversion details that would be more pertanant to a player than a DM.

Whoa there. That's not taking anything from the book's text, but is instead a reflection of your own opinion about what Iron Heroes is and how it's meant to be used. An opinion, I'll just say, that seems to be quite cleanly divorced from what's conveyed, implicitly and explicitly, by the creator of IH.

Iron Heroes is pretty much as ValhallaGH has been saying. Check it out, d00d.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'm sorry, you're forcing me to go to quotes and such and are making up things in the book that arent there.

It could just be that I've had a long and mentally strenuous day, but this sentence doesn't make sense. If it has a pertinent point, could you please reiterate it?

The book never says that its a low magic only setting. The book emphasizes in many points its a high fantasy game.

I completely agree. The setting is high magic / high fantasy. The heroes, i.e. PCs, are low magic / high fantasy.
(No, these ideas are not mutually exclusive. If anyone would like an explanation I will gladly give one.)

To understand the context, so long as a sorceror or a mage has magic items then they are balanced. By 3.5 rules those characters need the magic items to balance themselves out. The book suggests (and yes that is a suggestion) that they work better as villian classes but it does not restrict it to that.

Mastering Iron Heroes (bit of advice: citing sources really helps out everyone involved in a discussion) states that spellcasting classes make excellent villain classes. Given that those classes use the same spells that the IH skill rules were intended to ignore (Mike Mearls Design Diary: Skills in IH), it seems quite contrary to reintroduce those classes and spells back into an IH game.

Another point to keep in mind are the class criteria used when analyzing and creating the IH classes (Mike Mearls Design Diary: IH Classes). He kindly summarizes the important bits.

1. The classes shall kick ass.
2. You are what you do.
3. The classes exist to be cool, not to fit a need.
4. The classes must be distinct.

These are the fundamentals of class and ability evaluation when introducing caster classes and magic systems into Iron Heroes games.

You can just import stuff directly. It will be messy, confusing and unbalanced but it can be done.
(That still doesn't make IH a high PC magic game; the cobbled hybrid version is.)

As a matter of fact it goes on to give conversion details that would be more pertanant to a player than a DM.

Which details would those be, exactly?
The details reminding the DM to increase Save DCs to the point where PCs might actually fail the saves? The ones for changing HD type (which has no effect upon Wizards and Sorcerers)? The details for adding in a Base Defense Bonus so that the character won't be one-shotted by full power attacks?

Odd, those all seem "Caster as Villain" specific; though they could be used as a basis for making the caster into a PC class (plus feat masteries and skill groups and some non-per diem abilities).

Or do you refer to the guidelines in the IH book for transferring skill groups into other d20 system games?
Again, this could be part of the basis for importing a class for PC use but it's not a lot to work with.

 

[ValhallaGH]

As a matter of fact it goes on to give conversion details that would be more pertanant to a player than a DM.

Whoa there. That's not taking anything from the book's text, but is instead a reflection of your own opinion about what Iron Heroes is and how it's meant to be used. An opinion, I'll just say, that seems to be quite cleanly divorced from what's conveyed, implicitly and explicitly, by the creator of IH.

Thank you for saying it. If I had done so then it might have been percieved as some form of personal slight (which it wouldn't have been but I don't like to have meaningless distractions cluttering up my discussions).

Iron Heroes is pretty much as ValhallaGH has been saying.

Thank you for your support.

 

[DonTadow]

Thank you for saying it. If I had done so then it might have been percieved as some form of personal slight (which it wouldn't have been but I don't like to have meaningless distractions cluttering up my discussions).

Thank you for your support.

Point being that in your quotes the term uses the word "better" and not "only" or "must" or any definitive word that forces 3.5 characters into villian classes.

I have no quims with how you use it. And just as there are people whom use IH for one thing there are many, many more that without house rules and using the text from the book use it in a high to normal magic setting.

My argument is not that it can' not be done for low magic, it is that it is not a low magic only setting. In every quote, argument and wording I've heard from you guys not one person can tell me where it says this is a low magic only setting, yet in your own proof the design is there for all types of games.