Iron Heroes threaten my GM style of low magic items...

[Aus_Snow]

It astounds me that people complain that DnD won't do certain things when the assumptions of DND are hardly a secret.

It astounds me that people see asking questions, seeking answers, and considering the creation of custom solutions to common problems as 'complaining'!

I wonder if the White Wolf boards see people complaining that they can't run a science fiction Vampire game or the Paladium boards see complaints that Rifts is too hard to use to run a low magic game.

Here's the thing though. You do get people running scifi vampire games with WW 'Storyteller' systems! And yes, posting Q&A about it. I know, because I've seen it. I have had very little exposure to Palladium in any of its facets, but it wouldn't surprise me if people have at some points along the way not only posted those kinds of issues/questions, but found and/or created solutions for them too.

Also, this is not a WotC site, so the parallel doesn't quite match. Check out independent WW/Palladium/whatever other system forums - I'll bet there's quite a bit of tinkering going on.

But, for that matter, even on the actual WotC site, there is a lot of house-ruling being bandied about. Is that a form of complaining too?

 

[med stud]

I can see two things that seem to be important here:

1) Without magic items, spellcasters becomes much more powerful than non-spellcasters. Sure, D&D is not about power yada yada, but it's not funny to play a fighter that gets outshined by the cleric every simple time. If I joined a game playing a fighter expecting to contribute to a party I would be very disappointed if I became a sidekick to the spellcasters at about lvl 5.

2) If your players are complaining you might have to rethink your position. It's unnecessary to bring prestige into this. If it is that you absolutely can't have fun if the PCs have RAW magic items then you can tell them that and discuss if the campaign is worth continuing. If you think that you can put magic items in and you think the players will like it, then do it. If you don't like magic items but have no problems with PCs with many options I suggest giving Iron Heroes a try. It's not as complex as it sounds; it adds some complexity but by removing spells, magic items and wealth guidelines it really removes lots of complexity as well. You can stat up a lvl 20 PC/NPC in under 20 minutes in IH, I have never been able to do that in D&D.

 

[JoeGKushner]

It isn't about your players wanting magical items. They just want to have the power that is implied by the game, to meet the average of the curve. Iron Heroes will allow them to do this without having to rely on magical items, which they don't have anyway.

Assuming that all of the characters are melee oriented, then yeah, you're right. If you have a mage or cleric, then no, you're wrong because the theme of Iron Heroes, from what I've heard and seen from others, is on the fighter, as opposed to mages, even in a low magic campaign, which can still be quite powerful.

it sounds like he's enjoying running his game, but at the same time, that his players want more loot. I know where's he's coming from and know where the players are coming from. Last game I was in, I was a 7th level cleric of Tempus with masterwork battleaxes and my magic item was a amulet that gave me a +1 hit point per die when healing. On the other hand, there has to be some buy in from the players in the first place.

 

[Janx]

I can tell you what is running through your players mind when they get a magical item. "About damn time" as opposed to "Yes!".

Another thought in this vein is that 2/6 players have magic items. How do the players who don't have a magic item feel about that?

Generally, if Joe's got a magic item, I want a magic item too. Otherwise, he's special and the rest of us are not.

 

[SkidAce]

I wonder if the White Wolf boards see people complaining that they can't run a science fiction Vampire game or the Paladium boards see complaints that Rifts is too hard to use to run a low magic game. It astounds me that people complain that DnD won't do certain things when the assumptions of DND are hardly a secret.

Because it didn't use to be that way...? I think that's what the majority of low magic people look for...1st edition was easier to house rule. All the conflicting rules made you used to custmizing your campaign. Hehe.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Another thought in this vein is that 2/6 players have magic items. How do the players who don't have a magic item feel about that?

Generally, if Joe's got a magic item, I want a magic item too. Otherwise, he's special and the rest of us are not.

Can't you just accpet the fact that Joe is special?

 

[Hussar]

It astounds me that people see asking questions, seeking answers, and considering the creation of custom solutions to common problems as 'complaining'!


*snip*

But, for that matter, even on the actual WotC site, there is a lot of house-ruling being bandied about. Is that a form of complaining too?

I realize I happened to pick two sites specific to their own systems. My bad. My point is that people who pick a system usually do so because that system fits their style of play. Picking a system and then complaining that the system doesn't do what you want it to do has a pretty simple answer: Pick another system.

Looking at the title of the thread, I have to assume that it is a form of complaint when he uses the word "threaten". Maybe that's my bad for the assumption, but, I don't see how it can be taken as constructive criticism of a system when the OP talks about how a rules change is threatening.

And, let's face it, there are any number of threads floating around about how DnD is teh suxxors because it's has too many magic items, with a nice seasoning undertext of DnD is for immature gits who only want to stroke their munchkin ego. You've done it yourself by ignoring my main point. If you need to massively revamp a system to make it do what you want, that's not the fault of the system any more than it's the hammer's fault it won't screw in screws. If you are running a very low magic setting, that's fine. But, perhaps, just maybe, there is the tiniest possibility that a different system other than 3.5 DnD might fit that setting better.

 

[Bastoche]

Because it didn't use to be that way...? I think that's what the majority of low magic people look for...1st edition was easier to house rule. All the conflicting rules made you used to custmizing your campaign. Hehe.

It was not only easier to house rule, it had to be. Same goes for 2E especially with the conflicting splat book (Elven handbook comes to mind!)

 

[Aus_Snow]

Picking a system and then complaining that the system doesn't do what you want it to do has a pretty simple answer: Pick another system.

It will often have multiple potential simple answers; that is one of them.

Looking at the title of the thread, I have to assume that it is a form of complaint when he uses the word "threaten". Maybe that's my bad for the assumption, but, I don't see how it can be taken as constructive criticism of a system when the OP talks about how a rules change is threatening.

I'm just not sure that it involved criticism of the system at all. If that is the case, then my apologies - that didn't quite catch my eye.

And, let's face it, there are any number of threads floating around about how DnD is teh suxxors because it's has too many magic items, with a nice seasoning undertext of DnD is for immature gits who only want to stroke their munchkin ego.

Sure they're not (at least mostly) just threads about low-magic / low-magic-item-count campaigns/possibilities/products that could somehow have been misread that way?

You've done it yourself by ignoring my main point.

I have? Well, that's news to me. If I have inadvertently offended you, then again, my apologies.

If you need to massively revamp a system to make it do what you want, that's not the fault of the system any more than it's the hammer's fault it won't screw in screws. If you are running a very low magic setting, that's fine. But, perhaps, just maybe, there is the tiniest possibility that a different system other than 3.5 DnD might fit that setting better.

Yes, there is a possibility. A good possibility, even (I would say). But still, people will experiment, and preferences will vary.

I don't see why the point needs to be brought around to people's supposed belief in "the fault of the system" though. Again, is that where people are really coming from?

 

[frankthedm]

Run BRP Cthulhu dark ages.