Iron Heroes threaten my GM style of low magic items...

[Varianor Abroad]

Because it didn't use to be that way...? I think that's what the majority of low magic people look for...1st edition was easier to house rule. All the conflicting rules made you used to custmizing your campaign. Hehe.

However, D&D 3.5 is actually easier to customize than 1E was. For two reasons. 1. There are piles, literally piles of developed subsystems to drop in. (You have to be careful, but a lot of the work has been done for you.) 2. Once you master 3.5, which is a longer curve, you find that the rules intrinsically hang together better, so it's easier to figure out which parts are affected by a change.

Oh, and I'll add 3. The Internet. We didn't have hundreds of willing consultants to brainstorm with Back In The Day.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Assuming that all of the characters are melee oriented, then yeah, you're right. If you have a mage or cleric, then no, you're wrong because the theme of Iron Heroes, from what I've heard and seen from others, is on the fighter, as opposed to mages, even in a low magic campaign, which can still be quite powerful.

I don't quite understand what you're saying here, Joe. After all, spellcasters have no incentive at ALL to request shifting to the IH ruleset, given that, as you point out, they're not really gimped in a low-magic-item setting. TW's assumption seems pretty spot-on.

it sounds like he's enjoying running his game, but at the same time, that his players want more loot. I know where's he's coming from and know where the players are coming from. Last game I was in, I was a 7th level cleric of Tempus with masterwork battleaxes and my magic item was a amulet that gave me a +1 hit point per die when healing.

Ah, but you were a CLERIC. You could enchant your weapons, give yourself buffs, and do all that other cool stuff yourself. Being a[n] [item-dependent] fighter in a low-magic D&D game is a different can of worms.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I don't see why the point needs to be brought around to people's supposed belief in "the fault of the system" though. Again, is that where people are really coming from?

There's a lot of baggage around the forums on this topic, actually.

 

[Hussar]

There's a lot of baggage around the forums on this topic, actually.

Maybe that's my fault for reading more into things than I should. Rereading the ENworld Whiners thread, I realize that I might be dragging discussions from one thread to another. Again, that's my bad. It just seems that every time this sort of question gets brought up, the conversation invariably revolves around an edition fight. That might just be my own biases coloring my perception though.

Perhaps a deep breath and a step back is in order.

To be 100% honest though, the 3e system is hung together pretty tightly. Again, I don't think anyone denies that. The rules are based on a few basic assumptions and are, by and large, outgrowths of those assumptions. One of those assumptions is a level of wealth by character level. A great deal of the game hangs on that assumption. If you change that assumption, you have to do a lot of work to make it function. Maybe it's because I'm extremely lazy, but, I would rather do a bit of shopping for another system, like IH, or maybe True D20 or others (I can't really say, because I actually LIKE the assumptions of 3.5, so I don't shop around too much.) that fits my assumptions better. Unless you are going to spend a great deal of time reworking the system, changing the assumptions is going to have a ripple effect throughout the entire campaign. I don't have the time or energy to work out all the kinks those ripples will cause. However, if someone does want to work out all those kinks, that's fine. Just don't complain about it. Nothing is forcing you to move away from core assumptions. Ask questions, fine. But, I'm sorry, but even in my limited time on the boards, I see thread after thread that essentially become "I hate the 3.5" threads.

And I don't think I'm the only one who's noticed that.

 

[Remathilis]

Not familiar with IH.

I'm not a HUGE fan of trinkets. I used to be, but I've cut back. I'd rather give out some descent, quality items and some disposables rather than hordes of weak junk.

I played in a game where the only magic item everyone had was a ring +1 and a melee weapon +1 (varied by PC). 5th level. 3.0. That was boring to me, and we were NO WHERE NEAR the power of our enemies (who, even lacking awesome toys, still throttled us).

On the other hand, I played in a game where at 16th level, +10 effective items were in abundance, enough for everyone to have "backups". That was kinda boring too.

As with all things, balance. Eyeballing it, a 8th level Pc should have a +2 weapon (effective), armor or defensive items of +1-+2, 1-3 boost items (natural armor, saves, ability score) some "kewl" ability item (protections, movement, whatever) and 3-5 potions, scrolls, or wands. Most non-magical gear should be MW. I don't know if thats RAW, but my PCs work well with.

 

[FireLance]

To be 100% honest though, the 3e system is hung together pretty tightly. Again, I don't think anyone denies that. The rules are based on a few basic assumptions and are, by and large, outgrowths of those assumptions. One of those assumptions is a level of wealth by character level. A great deal of the game hangs on that assumption. If you change that assumption, you have to do a lot of work to make it function.

Actually, expanding on a point I made in the thread about the extreme proliferation of magic in D&D, I think the key concept is not "wealth per level", or even "magic per level", but "effectiveness per level". If you can find some mundane, equipment-independent way of giving a 6th-level fighter the bonuses he would have got from magic equipment (say, an innate +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with any weapon he wields, an innate +2 enhancement bonus to AC with any armor he uses, an innate +1 dodge bonus to AC and an innate +2 resistance bonus to saves in place of a +1 weapon, +2 armor, a +1 ring of deflection and a +2 cloak of protection), he can still keep pace with the spellcasters, and it isn't more complicated than figuring out what kind of equipment he should have for his level and translating them into equivalent bonuses. I believe this is what Iron Heroes does, although I don't have the book.

 

[Voadam]

D&D can handle low wealth at high levels. It can handle different base score stats, solo partying or huge 12 people parties. It can handle vastly disparate levels among a party,

I've played in games where the party ranged from 1st to high 30s for levels, and everybody had fun.

I'm playing in a game right now where my solo 15th level character has lost all his stuff but is in the process of taking his revenge and taking out bad guys in a hit and run style campaign of assaults, and I'm enjoying it immensely.

I find the entitlement attitude of "I'm X level, I should have X amount of magic items, and be able to handle X CR challenges, just because we are playing a D&D game" very wierd. D&D and adventures in D&D have always been capricious, with every world being different, and conditions very fluid as there are plenty of in game effects to bring characters down and break their stuff or screw with their powers. The defaults are guidelines and provide a good balance, when a DM changes those defaults he should just be aware of the effects this will have and plan accordingly. Throwing lower CR challenges at parties is not that big a deal, and having lower than suggested wealth does not show a huge need to switch systems.

IH sounds neat and provides a default level of lower magic items and less reliable magic, but it also has a different style emphasis on rules that a DM might not want to take up.

IH is an option for low magic d20, it is not the only one and D&D can handle the campaign style just fine.

There is nothing unreasonable in a DM saying "I appreciate that you want me to run IH or increase the magic items in my D&D game, but I'm happy running my low magic D&D campaign and not interested in running a different campaign, so I'm not running a different campaign. If you think the game is not fun then I'll understand if you don't want to keep playing it, but this is the game I'm running."

 

[I'm A Banana]

If you can find some mundane, equipment-independent way of giving a 6th-level fighter the bonuses he would have got from magic equipment (say, an innate +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with any weapon he wields, an innate +2 enhancement bonus to AC with any armor he uses, an innate +1 dodge bonus to AC and an innate +2 resistance bonus to saves in place of a +1 weapon, +2 armor, a +1 ring of deflection and a +2 cloak of protection), he can still keep pace with the spellcasters, and it isn't more complicated than figuring out what kind of equipment he should have for his level and translating them into equivalent bonuses. I believe this is what Iron Heroes does, although I don't have the book.

This is what I prefer for my own D&D campaigns, and the system that FFZ uses, as well.

 

[tetsujin28]

Quoted for truth. (snip)

Preach it, brother. Dead on.

 

[tetsujin28]

Run BRP Cthulhu dark ages.

Or Runequest without magic. Heck, even with magic it's a lot lower scale than D&D.