Iron Heroes...what's your opinion?

[Malachias Invictus]

I haven't had chance to play it yet, but I have it and have read it. I think it's fantastic, at least from a combat point of view.

I have run it once, and it is amazingly fun. I will be introducing more combat options as we go along (I am starting the whole group, some veteran D&Ders, some new, from 1st).

I'm not convinced by the magic system, though I must admit I haven't seen it in operation.

The magic system is, well, poop. Even Mike (Mearls) isn't happy with it. It needs extreme tweaking and/or replacement. A substantial group of us are working on this, and hopefully Mike will throw his expertise in; he has been very supportive of the idea of fixing this part of an otherwise awesome system.

It's what I wanted D&D to be, almost.

You know, that is a great way to put it.

I think that the GM book is going to be a necessity. I'm assuming it contains rules for NPCs etc. which don't involve using the complexity of the PC's token system.

Some shortcutting tips for "PC class" NPCs would be nice.

It has no unarmed combat types in it though. Don't know whether that's deliberate or not, or whether it's planned for another book.

Mike said he wanted to do it right, with the full treatment, or not at all (in fact, he really wanted to excise the magic system and leave it for another book, once it had been given proper treatment). I know of no plans for an unarmed combat book, though.

I'd have liked to see one unarmed combat class and to see it addressed in the feat mastery section. Would be simple to homebrew that aspect, though.

Several have already tried. To be frank, the Monk would not be too hard to port. I would love to see an expanded treatment, though.

 

[Malachias Invictus]

There's a lot in Iron Heroes that would be very useful in a D&D campaign, but it's not necessarily something a novice DM could easily incorporate.

I would put doing so into the "Advanced Intermediate" category. A few things are easier, but you could find things getting out of hand quickly if you are not careful.

 

[Malachias Invictus]

Wow, I'm obviously in the minority here but I finally got a chance to read it and I don't like it all. Seriously.

Constantly while I read through it I had the feeling that it was suffering from an identity crisis and was rushed. It so wants to be Conan but it isn't. The book feels like mechanics without a home.

I don't mind that, really. It is the mechanics that I bought the book for in the first place. If I want a setting, I buy a setting book (I already have about a dozen different settings with a few books each, and I am always buying more). As for Conan, I think it can do that just fine (not that I want to use it for such).

And then there is that Roleplaying chapter. What is this? Is this some kind of joke?

I have not really read it, as I don't really need tips on roleplaying. What specifically is the issue?

No unarmed combat abilities,

Untrue. There are unarmed combat abilities. There is no Monk class, though. Is that what you meant?

an unnecessarily clunky reserve point system (why not just use VP/WP?),

VP/WP replaces hit points. The Reserve Point system replaces the need for clerical healing, while still keeping the standard hit point system. The goals of each are totally dissimilar.

a token system that rewards players to spend actions to do nothing,

It rewards players for taking strategic advantages. Hell, it is better than Delaying when you have nothing better to do, and it also allows things like Bard's downing of Smaug, which is otherwise impossible to emulate in D&D. That said, if you do not like it, you could always not bother with using it.

a low-magic system in which armor grants DR but is overcome by magic weapons,

I don't like this either. I am replacing "/Magic" with "/-". If I want a special magical McGuffin or the like to be able to penetrate DR, I will give it that ability.

a throwaway caster class and magic system,

The magic system is poop, true. The Arcanist is a great class, though; it just needs a good magic system tacked on.

and quotes like:

"Players can get so caught up in the game's exciting combat and action that they forget to stress other key aspects of their characters, such as personality and background."

You have got to be kidding me.

You have never seen this happen in a game? That is why it is important for the GM to help stress those things by bringing up situations that involve them.

Ugh, I just don't know what my problem is. Why does everyone like this and not me?

Different strokes?

 

[Khairn]

What AU initially did for D20 magic, IH does for D20 combat & skills. (except for monks)

 

[Malachias Invictus]

For those who like IH, but not the magic system: Could you reasonably use regular D&D spellcasters in an IH game? Or do you think it would mesh well with Elements of Magic (Revised)? That sounds like a good combination but I haven't seen IH yet so it's hard to say.

I am currently working on a Skill-based version of Elements of Magic for Iron Heroes. I think it will be a good fit.

 

[GlassJaw]

I have not really read it, as I don't really need tips on roleplaying. What specifically is the issue?

It insults my intelligence quite frankly.

Untrue. There are unarmed combat abilities. There is no Monk class, though. Is that what you meant?

Nope. Why no Mastery based on Improved Unarmed Strike? Is IUS what you meant by an unarmed combat ability?

VP/WP replaces hit points. The Reserve Point system replaces the need for clerical healing, while still keeping the standard hit point system. The goals of each are totally dissimilar.

They both replace the need for clerical healing and allow the characters to recover more quickly from a battle. The goals are quite the same actually.

It rewards players for taking strategic advantages. Hell, it is better than Delaying when you have nothing better to do, and it also allows things like Bard's downing of Smaug, which is otherwise impossible to emulate in D&D. That said, if you do not like it, you could always not bother with using it.

If by strategic advantage you mean stand there and bite your shield so you can build up your Final Fantasy frenzy meter, then yes, it does reward the players.

Different strokes?

Or certain publishers getting more of the benefit of the doubt sometimes?

 

[ThirdWizard]

Now, I understand most of your complaints, and agree with many of them, though I still love Iron Heros, but that last statement looks a bit unprofessional and might be construed as bitterness. You might want to rethink that.

 

[GlassJaw]

Now, I understand most of your complaints, and agree with many of them, though I still love Iron Heros, but that last statement looks a bit unprofessional and might be construed as bitterness. You might want to rethink that.

No rethinking needed. Just an opinion. I'm not even saying it happens - just suggesting that it may be possible...

Any what does the statement have to do with being unprofessional or bitter anyway? What am I bitter about? I'm not a publisher nor have I done any RPG work that I've gotten paid for. I'm just one gamer with an opinion.

 

[ThirdWizard]

No rethinking needed. Just an opinion. I'm not even saying it happens - just suggesting that it may be possible...

Any what does the statement have to do with being unprofessional or bitter anyway? What am I bitter about? I'm not a publisher nor have I done any RPG work that I've gotten paid for. I'm just one gamer with an opinion.

Okay, unprofessional makes no sense, I'll give that. A lot of people have shown... erm... disfavor toward Malhavok though, for whatever reason, even if they arn't publishers or have connections to the publishing industry. I'm just saying somebody might think that your statement is saying that Iron Heroes is popular because Malhavok wrote it. I'm not saying that. Please don't think I'm implying that. I have no reason to think that, since your statements about the book for the most part have been spot on. I think it just does a disservice to your previous posts.

 

[GlassJaw]

Okay, unprofessional makes no sense, I'll give that. A lot of people have shown... erm... disfavor toward Malhavok though, for whatever reason, even if they arn't publishers or have connections to the publishing industry. I'm just saying somebody might think that your statement is saying that Iron Heroes is popular because Malhavok wrote it. I'm not saying that. Please don't think I'm implying that. I have no reason to think that, since your statements about the book for the most part have been spot on. I think it just does a disservice to your previous posts.

Fair enough. I hesitated to post it in the first place. It was kind of one of those things that you think but don't necessarily say out loud but every once in a while you do. Oh well.

If nothing else, Malhavoc certainly gets more attention than other publsihers when they release something new just because of their name alone. I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all. Much of that attention is earned though - the vast majority of Malhavoc's stuff is great. Even if you don't necessarily like the overall style of Malhavoc's products, they are some of the highest quality RPG products out there.

That said, I have also noticed a trend that when someone criticizes a Malhavoc product, that person is potentially opening themselves up to a more lot of flack from other posters (some might refer to them as fanboys) than if they criticized a product from another publisher. I do think that Malhavoc gets more slack if they release a substandard product though. But again, I don't think that's necessarily a bad statement to make. You can make the argument that their proven track record cuts them that slack. If I was a small publisher and poured my heart and soul into a product and got nowhere near the attention that Malhavoc gets, then yeah, I can see how that would be frustrating. But that situation isn't limited to the RPG industry alone.

Having one so-so product in an otherwise great library of products doesn't a bad company make. I love Chaositech and the Temple of Mysteries module. I was disappointed with Iron Heroes. Life goes on.