D&D 4E Is 22 points the best point buy for 4e?

[S'mon]

I like the default 22 point system, it's actually the equivalent of 32 point in 3e since you start with 5 10s and an 8, not 6 8s. It seems to work fine.

I also like how adding half level to the roll reduces the dominance of stats, if you are running a more sandboxy game. That DC 20 door can be smashed by a low level Fighter or a high level Wizard.

 

[KidSnide]

In my experience, it's the score in the top ability (or two abilities) that matters much more than the total number of points. It seems to me that, point buy penalizes MAD characters and unconventional hybrids over the character types that can make out a single score and not worry too much about the others. To mitigate these factors, I've adopted the following array rules:

* Use one of the following (marginally different) ability score arrays:
= 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 8
= 16, 15, 14, 13, 10, 10
= 16, 15, 14, 12, 11, 10

* If you do not put a +2 racial bonus into the top score, you may instead use:
= 17, 14, 14, 13, 12, 8

-KS

 

[Aurumvorax]

What brought up this thread ideas was some thinking about our old 3e days. When I first started playing 3e, we all used dice roll for our stats but over time our games converted to point buy.

However, even though the core recommendation was 25 points...we never used it. That was way too few points, we always went with at minimum 28, and often would do 32. I know from old posts that many groups did something similar to my group.

With 4e, the core assumption is 22 point (with a different point buy system of course).

How many people have tried changing that value, going higher or lower? What has been the experience?

25 points is the elite array which is more than enough. Considering most monsters (those without character classes) are built using the common array, PCs with 25 points are effectively twice as capable as 90% of the default material.

Modifying the way attributes are handled is a pitfall people don't see until its too late. It wasn't until I scrutinized the way I handled character creation that I realized why none of my campaigns make it above level 10.

The default material in 3rd and 4th edition is created with a specific design in mind (5 characters, 25 points in 3E and leader, striker, controller, two defenders, 22 points in 4E). Modifying the starting ability scores means you also have to modify monster power because the games are designed with certain assumptions in mind.

For 4E I've never strayed away from the 22 points because anything higher leads the PCs to overwhelming opponents forcing me to boost monsters and anything lower makes them underpowered because of how quickly monster defenses and attacks increase.

 

[Mercurius]

I've always felt that people should have the ability scores they want (within reason), so for most campaigns I start with a generous option, what I call the "legendary array:" 18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, which ends up being a 37 (!). This sounds more impressive than it actually is because of the high cost (16) of that 18, but I figure that everyone wants one 18, so why not?

(Or they can roll two sets of 4d6 six times and choose the best set.)

 

[Gort]

I actually have my group use the 16/14/13/12/11/10 array. It works fine, even though its technically underpowered for most builds. This is a pretty resilient area of the game.

Likewise. I dunno, I find that putting a 20 in your primary attack stat makes such a lot of sense that it sort of makes every character into a one-trick pony. I prefer to see players spread the stats out a bit more, and not feel like they gimped themselves by putting an 18 into strength instead of 20.

 

[Obryn]

I think 22 points is just about right, honestly.

-O

 

[Stuntman]

My group has only used the 22-point standard. I have never seen a reason to change it. All characters seem to be more or less well balanced. Even my multiclassed fighter/wizard and two other hybrid characters seemed pretty effective compared to the single classed characters.

As someone who likes to min/max, I will always feel like I could use an extra point or two here or there. Even in 3E when I used point-buy, no matter what points I am allowed, I always want a few more. Bottom line is how your character works, and in 4E, they all work fine.

 

[Hejdun]

I don't have a complaint with the quantity of points allowed, I have a problem with the cost of certain ability scores, in particular the steep cost for higher ability scores. It makes certain combinations of classes and races too much more powerful than every other combination. In practice, it means that 90% of Artful Dodger Rogues are Halflings, same with Dragonborn Inspiring Warlords, etc. This is particularly aggravated by the high miss rate among PCs, which makes 18+ primary stats extremely desirable.

Racial ability bonuses are one sacred cow that needs to die. Making more class/race combinations viable would be a good thing.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Racial ability bonuses are one sacred cow that needs to die. Making more class/race combinations viable would be a good thing.

Overall I would agree with this. Especially with two ability scores hitting both desired ability scores for a class, it tends to pigeonhole races into certain classes.

 

[Salamandyr]

22 point buy is fine, but...

I noticed a strain in a point buy system between character concept and optimization. Personally, I don't like this strain. I think it goes against the design precepts of 4e to sacrifice mechanical viability for character concept. This became an issue when one of my players was running a human rogue with a 16 Dex and 13 Int, because he felt being "clever" required an above average Intelligence score. Power-wise, this put him roughly equivalent to a 17 point buy character, since those 5 points in Int did not make a single bit of difference mechanically. The only modification he derived was a +1 to two skills he was untrained in and would never use. Not everybody wants to fit an 8 into their character concept. (For the record, I do not require people to roleplay their dumpstats, but some players either can't or don't wish to ignore the numbers on their sheets.)

Since in 4e, essentially only 3 stats ever greatly matter, I allowed any stat up to
16,14,14,14,14,14
16,16,13,13,13,13
If you were a race that did not have a +2 in your prime stat you could use
18,14,12,12,12,12--

You can always choose a lower stat if you wish. This means your top 3 stats are equal to what you'd get in a 22 point buy, but your bottom 3 stats are whatever fits your character concept. (the off stat one is slightly higher).

This had a nice side effect...it made some feat qualifications a little easier to qualify for...things like light armor characters qualifying for light armor specialization, and great weapon fighters being able to qualify for heavy blade feats.