D&D 4E Is 22 points the best point buy for 4e?

[Cadfan]

3e had higher opportunity costs for prime stats since Constitution was so valuable. Also, the lower to-hit chance is initially, the more valuable +1 to hit is relative to, say, +1 to damage.

1. I'll grant the opportunity cost issue, though it only went so far.

2. As for the chance to hit issue, is that actually a difference between 3e and 4e? 3e seems to start in the same general probability range as 4e. And as you level up, you gain iterative attacks, which ensure that your chance to hit will spread across the spectrum from high to low odds. Furthermore, the difference in the marginal value of +1 to hit and damage for a character who already hits on a 5+ versus one who hits on an 8+ may be real, but its just not that big.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Have used the default 22 point buy. It feels just right, very much like the 32 point buy I used for all my 3e games. Actually I haven't even thought of doing it any differently because it felt so "right". Now that the question has been asked I am starting to wonder... And concluded that it wouldn't make my game any better to change it.

 

[Garthanos]

22 point buy is fine, but...

I noticed a strain in a point buy system between character concept and optimization. Personally, I don't like this strain. I think it goes against the design precepts of 4e to sacrifice mechanical viability for character concept. This became an issue when one of my players was running a human rogue with a 16 Dex and 13 Int, because he felt being "clever" required an above average Intelligence score. Power-wise, this put him roughly equivalent to a 17 point buy character, since those 5 points in Int did not make a single bit of difference mechanically. The only modification he derived was a +1 to two skills he was untrained in and would never use. Not everybody wants to fit an 8 into their character concept. (For the record, I do not require people to roleplay their dumpstats, but some players either can't or don't wish to ignore the numbers on their sheets.)

Since in 4e, essentially only 3 stats ever greatly matter, I allowed any stat up to
16,14,14,14,14,14
16,16,13,13,13,13
If you were a race that did not have a +2 in your prime stat you could use
18,14,12,12,12,12--

You can always choose a lower stat if you wish. This means your top 3 stats are equal to what you'd get in a 22 point buy, but your bottom 3 stats are whatever fits your character concept. (the off stat one is slightly higher).

This had a nice side effect...it made some feat qualifications a little easier to qualify for...things like light armor characters qualifying for light armor specialization, and great weapon fighters being able to qualify for heavy blade feats.

I have anti - optimizing players... and if they have 5 or even 7 more points they tend to stick it someplace to avoid having a dump stat I am quite happy with this yeah... but even so we dont do it very often. It makes my son feel guilty to have houseruled on the character cheet in CB... I need to be able to set this value as a standard for a campaign.

 

[tuxgeo]

Easy house rule: everyone can choose to start with 20 point buy instead of 22; if so, they gain +2 to any ability score they don't have a racial bonus to. Potential problems: Dwarf fighters and the like.

Re: that house rule: How would you adjudicate Humans using that rule? Humans don't have any hard-coded racial bonuses, merely a floating +2 to apply as desired. Would Humans get to put the floating, racial +2 somewhere, and then take another +2 somewhere else? Or would Humans be already covered, in the sense that their floating, racial +2 is the same thing you are offering to other races? In the latter case you would never have Human characters using the 20-point buy, because it would gain them nothing.

 

[Elric]

Would Humans get to put the floating, racial +2 somewhere, and then take another +2 somewhere else?

Like this.

2. As for the chance to hit issue, is that actually a difference between 3e and 4e? 3e seems to start in the same general probability range as 4e. And as you level up, you gain iterative attacks, which ensure that your chance to hit will spread across the spectrum from high to low odds. Furthermore, the difference in the marginal value of +1 to hit and damage for a character who already hits on a 5+ versus one who hits on an 8+ may be real, but its just not that big.

I'll confess to not remembering 3e chances to hit well enough (my final 3e character was a spellcaster who didn't need to roll to hit, and even that was years ago) to have a well-informed take here. Plus, it's hard to have a good sense for expected bonuses for player to-hit and monster AC at higher levels in 3e in any case.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Have used the default 22 point buy. It feels just right, very much like the 32 point buy I used for all my 3e games. Actually I haven't even thought of doing it any differently because it felt so "right". Now that the question has been asked I am starting to wonder... And concluded that it wouldn't make my game any better to change it.

We used 25 point buy for most of our time with 3E!

I considered ourselves real hardcore, unlike all those "cheaters" using 32 point buy.

 

[Starfox]

Did a 25 point by, its working out.

If I do a second 4E game, I think I'll do a 22 point bye with a +2 bonus to any one stat you do not get a racial bonus on. This to break up the race/class ties.

 

[Blackbrrd]

We used 25 point buy for most of our time with 3E!

I considered ourselves real hardcore, unlike all those "cheaters" using 32 point buy.

You calling me a cheater?!

But yeah, we did like our characters a head above the crowd. Those 7 extra points probably got a stat from 16 to 18... Or with my last character, one stat from 8 to 14.

It was a bit amusing playing a character with 14,12,14,10,14,14 in stats. He luckily had some fun stat boosting stuff like bull's strength, str-domain and the knight of the crown +4 str for cha+3 rounds class feature. And a lot of weird stuff later on.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You calling me a cheater?!

And one of the worst kinds at that! Well, in jest at least.

But yeah, we did like our characters a head above the crowd. Those 7 extra points probably got a stat from 16 to 18... Or with my last character, one stat from 8 to 14.

It was a bit amusing playing a character with 14,12,14,10,14,14 in stats. He luckily had some fun stat boosting stuff like bull's strength, str-domain and the knight of the crown +4 str for cha+3 rounds class feature. And a lot of weird stuff later on.

25 point buy characters become utterly boring. The stats were highly repetitive, basically always the same array It was almost a genius example of creativity that I actually gave my Fighter in the Shackled City campaign a Wisdom of 8 and Charisma of 8 (instead of justhaving one 8) to pay for a higher starting Intelligence (more skill points!).
We switched to higher point buy values towards the end...

 

[Dice4Hire]

For my next 4E campaign, I am thinking of allowing players to keep one racial ability mod as it and freely change the other one to make more race/class combinations more feasible. I know it is a nice power-up though. Not sure what to give humans, though, maybe +2 and then a +1 to put anywhere......

Once in 3.5, I allowed a 40 point buy. Once only, it was too powerful. 32 point buy was good for us, though that was pretty powerful.