D&D 4E Is 4E winning you or losing you?

w_earle_wheeler said:
First, will I be able to do everything I can do with 3.5e with the first three 4e books released? Or will I have to wait for three or four years for 4e to catch up with the hundreds of character options released in 3.5e, only to have 5e peaking around the corner at that point?

I think this is an unreasonable expectation, honestly. By the time 4E is out, 3E will have had over eight years, and 3.5 about five, to stack options upon options upon options. To expect a brand new edition to be able to provide that same number of options right out of the gate is simply unrealistic.

That said, my impression is that it'll certainly be able to handle many of them, in spirit if not in precise mechanics. At least if the new multiclassing and breadth of classes are as solid as they've suggested.
 

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The announcement came a year earlier than I had expected, I had thought that they would milk 3.5 for another turn of the globe. But, once the details started coming in, I've become more and more excited. Barring the revelation of playable furries and battlemechs in the PHB, I'm on board day one.

Favorite changes:
High level play.... actually playable (I refuse to DM 3.x games above level 13 or so currently)
Elimination of the Christmas Tree effect, and (hopefully) the golf bag of weapons.
Elimination of the 23.75 hour sleep cycle
Maneuvers to make combat mobile, fast paced, and cinematic
 

w_earle_wheeler said:
If it is available for a reasonable price, I will run the 4e preview module for as many people as possible, but I am hesitant to pay out of pocket to promote a for-profit company (basically, buying a preview module or preview product only to do the work of advertising for WotC). I like WotC products and have nothing against their company, but I am no one's shill.
I think running the preview module would be considered more of a test drive than advertising. Nothing wrong with playing (and paying) for a preview than spending +$30 to find out it's not the game for you. Even WoW demo CD-ROMs cost a couple of dollars.

To answer the OP's question, I went from excited, to "meh" rather quickly. It's great that you all have something to talk about, but I'm staying out of most of the 4E threads because it's all "wind in sails" to me until I get the new PHB in my hands next spring. In the meantime I'm cleaning up on 3.5 book sales on Amazon.com, ending my current 3.5 adventure for my group, and figuring when to run them a True20 one-shot.

And yes, I am an unpaid shill for True20 and I hope Green Ronin profits from it. ;)
 

>>>"Is 4E winning you or losing you?"

It lost me at "hello".

Because I don't care if it's great or not, the 3.5 game I've been running for five years is fun, fresh and exciting as day one and my players and I haven't even scratched the full potential of the game yet.

-DM Jeff
 

Mouseferatu said:
I think this is an unreasonable expectation, honestly. By the time 4E is out, 3E will have had over eight years, and 3.5 about five, to stack options upon options upon options. To expect a brand new edition to be able to provide that same number of options right out of the gate is simply unrealistic.

That said, my impression is that it'll certainly be able to handle many of them, in spirit if not in precise mechanics. At least if the new multiclassing and breadth of classes are as solid as they've suggested.
I've been thinking today about things I can carry forward--rules that aren't tied to a particular edition. For example, affiliations. That's a great system, and one that doesn't rely particularly strongly on anything from 3.5. Its rules are more or less self-contained.

I'm also wondering whether some of the later 3.5 classes will be somewhat "portable" compared to earlier ones. For example, the binder already uses a lot of at-will and per-encounter (-ish) effects. How hard would it be to convert it to 4th edition? It remains to be seen. However, I know that once I know my way around 4th edition, I'm going to be converting a lot of my 3.5 material if it's possible to do so.
 

I'm all over 4e like a hooker on a Russian oligarch.

I think the guys at WotC are smart gamers who spend their days thinking about D&D and their nights thinking about D&D. I'm totally confident that it will be a better game than 3e, and have no problem forking over the dough (since I'm usually looking for books to buy anyway-- might as well be quality).

I do think early signs point to dndinsider being somewhere between suck and underwhelming, but I don't play dndinsider with my friends on the weekends.

I like the rule changes we know about, I like the fluff changes as well. I'll run a campaign in the "points of light" world with default D&D stuff, then likely get bored and start doing my own thing.

If any DM here is honestly disturbed in some way that the "D&D story" is changing, I don't know what to tell you, except throw it out and do it your way. You know, like DMs have been since the dawn of time. Or the 70s. Which is essentially the dawn of time.
 



For better or for worse D20 has become the majority of the tabletop gaming universe. I was glad Wizards decided to create 4th edition. I mean, committing over a dozen excellent game designers and millions of dollars to my favorite game, D&D? That I can and do appreciate.

I want RPGs and D&D to thrive. Knowing that I'm no longer within Wizards' target audience doesn't make me want the game to succeed any less. So I'm giving my opinions with a grain of salt. What I want is not what everyone wants. In fact, I doubt many purchasers will be 100% satisfied. What I don't doubt is many will later have their desires answered in later publications (whether they be from Wizards or the d20 community).

D&D is more of an amalgamation of desires and definitions anyways, no? Even it's "core setting" is more of a hodgepodge collective of use-what-you-want setting elements. I'm betting the changes to the rules and that "core setting" are going to include a number of rules of modifying them to taste. Groups and individuals have been doing this since the beginning anyways (even when told not to).

Some elements make me very pleased, some quite displeased, and others I'm more ambivalent about. For the last, it depends. I'm not neutral on anything, because, well... it's D&D. :D

[sblock]Happy with:
- #1 with a bullet. Online play with no requirement for its use to play the game.
- Connecting Players as one of the 4 core elements of 4e.
- (re)Releasing common minis figurines and keeping them all as part of the game.
- Annual Core Book Releases. Another great idea. Why limit yourself when no ruleset continue without additions and adaptations?
- "Points of Light" Setting. An excellent assumed setting for Borderland lovers like myself. I believe this may be my preferred method of setting creation (and known setting alteration).
- The Artwork. Dungeonpunk is gone or marginalized. All I'd ask is they keep their eyes open for clever styles, storytelling scenes, and playful art (the brand/uniform style has been grand, but could use more variety: horror, comedy, Erol Otus & Trampier vein, not-so-serious)
- Flattening the power curve. Back to days of old?
- Removal of the major Magic Item reliance. I'm hoping the amount each PC holds can be up to their accomplishments and that they are still be game changing.
- Bringing the environment into combat via rules. I'm hoping these won't need statblocks and can be done on the fly.
- Better Multiclassing rules. Spellcasters not gimped when mixed. (I hope)
- Roles. A good idea, so long as they aren't unrealistically cleaved too.
- Task based layout of the DMG.
- Removal of CR and re-installment of XP as such.
- (guess) XP rating for any challenge, even magic items and treasure. This would be very cool.
- Flexible Monster Creation. Easy for one-the-fly play. One of the best things changed back.
- Removal of XP costs from Magic Item Creation. Back to a House Rule.
- New Spells mentioned. Can be very cool.
- Demon Lords in the Monster Manual.
- Monster Roles. I'm guessing some humanoids will have many.
- New Energy Vulnerability Effects.
- Removing (or altering) Massive Damage Rule.
- DR, if it disappears. I like all or nothing. Could be a House Rule.
- Full Attack Option Removed. And iterative attacks.
- Characters roll to Hide, not to spot. Or some form of...
- Removal or alteration of Dodge feat.
- No Economy rules. An option the 3rd Partyers will probably pick up.
- (?)Removal of Critical Hit confirmation rolls.


Ambivalent about:
- Keep on the Shadowfell. This is a good idea, but I'm unsure on how good this will need to be as a first taste to sell the game.
- Forgotten Realms Revamp. I use FR as a customizable setting anyways, so new material can be good material.
- Organized Play. Back when I started I was involved with this, but the community of people actually turned me off. I'm hoping they learned from the past and also grow more local cons. I might even find time to go back.
- Monthly Paid-For Digital Offerings. My money is tight right now, but is this really an option for kids? Won't they be competing with other monthly internet gaming services?
- Social Combat. An option, but not sure how easily removable it will be. I prefer switching in a game between 1 roll or none depending...
- Alignment - I like the generalization of it now. Use it or not. I'm unsure what the changes will be.
- Heroic, Paragon, Epic. Definitely needed to be added, but how flexible can these be? Can I play levels 1-10 for all three settings?
- Power Sources. Not a bad idea, but more than 3 might be useful. The Divine / Arcane divide is D&D, but also setting specific & arbitrary.
- New/Missing Classes, Races, Equipment, Monsters, Spells, Magic Items, etc. Not a problem. These are all added with supplements anyways and are Setting Specific. I like gnomes. Don't need them in the first book.
- Resource Management. I'm hoping this stays and isn't just what is listed in section 3 below. Food, gear, weight, speed, the overland travel game is still part of D&D.
- Advancement. 30 Levels is very high. I'm assuming the speed can be slowed as much as desired?
- Wizardly Implements. Not a bad house rule, but why include them?
- "Silo"ing Abilities. I have my reservations about this. In terms of spell restructuring I don't care for it at all.
- Half HP Effects. This seems unnecessary except to extend combats.
- "Built In" Movement in combat. I'm interested in how this will be implemented and the in-game reasons why it's followed.
- Overhauling Grapple.
- Minions. Are these NPC Follower rules?
- Unknowns. Will there be Ruling Rules? Reputation? Naval combat? Vehicular Combat and stats? Mass Combat?


Displeased with:
- Talent trees. Defining PC options for me has too often meant removal of options. 3e plays this way for me. Make them a game option.
- Feats. As above.
- Skills. Not as much as the above two as they are allowing more general competency, but couldn't they be an option too?
- (?) 3 HD at 1st level. Has this been confirmed? My favorite level is 1st.
- Encounter Per Day Abilities. So very few are actually representative of the game world. How do I describe these? ToB was not for me.
- All Classes get Per day/ encounter/ at will/ abilities. I prefer definition in my classes. Fighters can swing all day. Wizards cannot cast all day.
- Racial Levels. I start the game with the PCs as adults. This would be okay with abilities that can be developed.
- Retraining Rules. Training Rules are cool. Retraining ignores any semblance of realism.
- 20+ spell levels? Casters need fewer spells of greater power, not more with less differentiation.
- Fewer Save or Die Spells. Count me as one who wants fewer spells at higher impact.
- Increase of magic across the board in all aspects of the game". I was hoping it wouldn't happen though it increases EVERY edition.
- Removal of Level Drain. Will there be no Ability Drain either?
- Limiting 'Signature' Abilities for monsters. My conceptions of monsters' abilities are not limited.
- Action Points being Core. These represent nothing in the game world.
- Removing Saving Throws as a Player's choice.
- (unclear) Ease of Magic Item Creation. I'd rather have magic items as rewards and as challenges to create.
- (Guess) Nonmagical "Magic" powers. This is a guess, but my preference is not to have extraordinary abilities
- (Guess) Too Fine Granularity. Better than before is my guess, but I want my bonuses to mean something. Tables 8-5 & 8-6 are much of D&D Combat.[/sblock]
 

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