D&D 4E Is 4E winning you or losing you?

My opinion of 4e has progressed from neutral, to short-lived cautious optimism, to an overall negative perception. I'll reserve final judgement for the actual product, but I'm hearing almost nothing that sounds positive. So of the milestones thus far for me include:

Less-reliance on magic items (a huge positive) being nerfed by increased power level (Epic being built in), PCs being defined as heroic in power at level 1, and wizard implements. Does a +6 wand, a +3 staff, etc. sound like less reliance on magic items? It doesn't to me. I do like the thematic presentation, however.

The disconnect between the purported reasons for the release versus the scope of the changes. "Fixing" elements of 3e should not require changes of the magnitude and scope we're being led to believe will exist. Clearly, if 3.5 isn't compatible, the changes must be fairly drastic.

The "weak sell" of the problem areas. Many of the criticisms leveled against 3e are in my opinion criticisms of play styles, DM experience (i.e. rules familiarity), or corrected by minor tweaks (vast library of d20/OGL products I'm looking at you - you solved many of the "problem areas" of D&D for me already).

Faster leveling. When leveling becomes the primary objective of the game versus the enjoyment of the game itself, you've made a wrong turn.

Change for changes' sake. Many of the changes seem to exist only to soldify the incompatibility of 3e and 4e rather than to derive a true design benefit.

Monsters using different creation rules than PCs. I suspect this philosophy will extend to NPCs as well. If you want simplified monsters and NPCs, is anyone really forcing you to spend every skill point? No, but I like being able to when I want to define a monster to that level of detail.

The stronger focus on 3e's flaws rather than 4e's strengths. And the whole "we can tell you x without revealing everything" argument is BS. You want to slowly roll out info? First you ID a change - tell the what. Next blog, tell why the change will was made and why the change will improve your game. A few weeks, months,etc. - tell the how - show specific mechanics teasers or excerpts. Don't give me "I feel so sorry for people who still have to play 3e. Last night my rogue ran up a wall and flipped over his opponent. 4e is so darn cool."

The DDI/subscriber based content. One of the biggest aids RPG companies can do is provide additional info via their website. Companies like Paizo, Green Ronin, WotC (previously), and others leveraged the web to generate interest, answer questions, and receive player input. Charging for that seems like a huge mistake. Charge for the virtual tabletop, as that is a service. But frankly, most of the content I've seen over the years on the Wizards' site is not something I would pay for. (And I'd rather Dragon and Dungeon be magazines, thank you.)

The "How baked is it?" Factor. The design blogs have suggested that a lot of 4e is still in early stages. Given the amount of time remaining between now and the PHB ship date, there doesn't seem to be sufficient time to playtest, make changes, and publish. My concern is that this will either result in a 4.5e or a 5e coming sooner.

Finally, people have criticized the "too invested in 3e" argument as not making sense. Here's my take on it. 4e will have to recycle topics already covered in 3e. 3e covered subjects that 2e covered. If I haven't used, say, Complete Warrior to where I've "gotten my money's worth" yet, I don't want to buy the 4e fighter/warrior splatbook. And just because the material is broken up, mixed with other topics, and labeled PHB2, PHB3, and PHB4 doesn't make it any less of a supplement.
 

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Branduil said:
They never said there wouldn't be a unified rules system for monsters. It won't be the same as it is in 3.x, but they didn't say there was no system.

No, they stated unambiguously that the robustness of the system no longer extended to monsters. They're being made using ad hoc improvisations instead of the most thoroughly-playtested and best-built element of the game: the PC rules. The instant you have a separate system for one game element that does not apply to another game element, you have abandoned the notion that RPGs should have a coherent system at all. That's what drove me away from 2e.

Advancing monsters was an art in 3.x too. You can't just slap a template or levels on a Monster and expect the CR to match properly.

That's not been my experience, but that aside in the podcast Noonan was answering a direct question about whether or not you'd still be able to advance monsters by HD. He said it would be more an art than a science in that context. So apparently, again, we're getting less rules and less tools than we have in 3e.
 

(contact) said:
I'm all over 4e like a hooker on a Russian oligarch.

Hee hee!

I'm looking forward to 4e sufficiently that my wife is perturbed, as she does not want to abandon the game that I started running instead of 3e/3.5e. Even as a "one week D&D, the other week your favorite game" thing.

Of course, what with the tieflings being substituted for gnomes, the rules for on-the-fly adjudicating monsters, and the desire to put more power in the characters instead of their loot, I suspect that one of the designers on the team is secretly living inside my head. With a very small laptop.
 

Samnell said:
No, they stated unambiguously that the robustness of the system no longer extended to monsters. They're being made using ad hoc improvisations instead of the most thoroughly-playtested and best-built element of the game: the PC rules.

Um, no. I hate to be so blunt, but you're wrong.

Yes, they said that the rules for PCs and monsters no longer overlap 100%. But no, the monsters are not ad-hoc. They've said, in so many words, in several different instances, that there is a system for monster creation. It's not random, it's not hand-wavy. It's a system. It's just not the same system.
 

Mouseferatu said:
Um, no. I hate to be so blunt, but you're wrong.

Yes, they said that the rules for PCs and monsters no longer overlap 100%. But no, the monsters are not ad-hoc. They've said, in so many words, in several different instances, that there is a system for monster creation. It's not random, it's not hand-wavy. It's a system. It's just not the same system.

Things I know about 4e monsters:
* shorter statblock
* do not have feats by default. You can give a monster feats, but it doesn't get 1 per 3 HD by default.

Things I suspect about 4e monsters:
* monster level & role will intersect on a table to give appropriate ranges of abilities.

Cheers!
 

Samnell said:
being made using ad hoc improvisations instead of the most thoroughly-playtested and best-built element of the game: the PC rules.

Then we're in a lot of trouble.

Tell me, what level is a Wizard 3/Cleric 3 by the rules. CR 6?

Now, what is it in play?

Even better, a Wizard 10/Cleric 10?

If I want to break the PC rules for balance, I can do it superbly easily.

A monster is not a PC. If it were, then HD=ECL=CR, which it doesn't.

Cheers!
 

I trust the developers to make 4th edition better than 3.x and for that reason have been looking forward to the new edition for some time now. I'm not worried about the changes they are be making. I'm so unconcerned in fact that I stopped paying attention to the fluff details some time ago.

That said I do think they jumped the gun and announced 4th edition a year or two before they should have. By 2009 or 2010 I think most fans would have been ready for a new set of rules.

The announcement of 4th edition has solidified my place as a fluff and not a crunch fan. With 4th edition I plan on sticking to the core rulebooks + psionics book + fluff/setting books. I'll rely on Paizo for the rest. Really, what else do you need?
 

Mouseferatu said:
Yes, they said that the rules for PCs and monsters no longer overlap 100%. But no, the monsters are not ad-hoc. They've said, in so many words, in several different instances, that there is a system for monster creation. It's not random, it's not hand-wavy. It's a system. It's just not the same system.

It amounts to the same thing. There's no reason a game should have two different systems, one for antagonists and one for protagonists. It's less a system for being so, just as 2e and 1e were less systems because they had a mishmash of subsystems that resolved everything differently. This is the kind of thinking that produced all the rules-breaking FR NPCs everyone hates. The reasons the developers have given have been terrible, the sorts of corner cases and minor tweaks you can easily handle with simple racial modifiers and ability score changes.

Don't get me wrong. I'd be thrilled to see a chart of monster stats by CR, with the generally appropriate ranges noted. A CR5 giant should have X, Y, and Z. That would be a step forward. But using different rules entirely for antagonists is flat-out bad design. It makes the system less robust and gives the DM at the table fewer tools to use to extrapolate out how something ought to work when he or she needs to.

...Not that this argument hasn't been had in a dozen threads already. :)
 

MerricB said:
A monster is not a PC. If it were, then HD=ECL=CR, which it doesn't.

And that's exactly what they should be doing. Yet they're not. Hence my problem. The rules are the laws of physics for the game. If monsters exist in the same universe with the PCs, they should be following the same rules. 3e made great strides in this direction, which 4e is throwing away large swaths of. They've told us as much.
 

I'd be much happier if monsters were using the same rules PCs are using. I really would. Heck, WotC would make me squeal with delight and make it so the broad monster types are classes, and then each "race" of monsters just adds new talents to the tree. I'd love something like that to no end. Make Mind Flayers a level 10 abberation, or Ghouls are level 2 undead, or Ogre Mages level 4 giants and now you're talking my language!

But at the end of the day, monsters being different from PCs isn't a dealbreaker. M&M's minion rules pretty much sold me on the idea that from a design point of view, there's nothing wrong with some people just being more special than others. If it makes the game more fun, sweet! If not, I think I'll be okay anyway. Monsters are fun to mix it up, but a lot of my games use humanoid opponents.
 

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