D&D 5E Is 5e "Easy Mode?"

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
What truly annoys me about Tetrasodium's rants, and perhaps your own position, is the idea that these knock-on rule effects are somehow an impossible hurdle to overcome, and they could never just alter the rules to do what they want because of X, Y, Z, F, H, and of course LMNOP.
Hyperbole ... not impossible but so completely not trivial like many seem to present. I almost like my solution to the Fear spell but what other dozen spells and feats are going to popup that have a cascade off of it? I think the game designers themselves were in a much better position to have considered them when producing the rules and variant rules. Starting from more complex design then simplifying so that the variants are basically bringing in the complex rules in a coherent systematized actually modular goal driven way. I think of it perhaps from an engineering perspective.
 

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dave2008

Legend
Hyperbole ... not impossible but so completely not trivial like many seem to present.
But the issues are trivial to some people and groups. For instance, a change to a spell may have wide reaching affects; however, if there are no spell casters (or only a few) in our group, the change is irrelevant or trivial. Extreme example just to illustrate a point.

That being said, I understand the desire for a completely integrated variant that takes into account all potential issues. However, I personally like the simple rules in the DMG that leave it to me (the DM) to adjudicate corner cases. That is how I did it in 1e, and that is what I am comfortable doing it now.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
But the issues are trivial to some people and groups. For instance, if a change to a spell may have wide reaching affects; however, if there are no spell casters (or only a few), the change is irrelevant or trivial. Extreme example just to illustrate a point.
I remember the era where nobody went on line and found easy combos I think it passed however long ago.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
ok I will bite that example (almost) how about healing being broken because trivial magic item creation in 3e allowed far far too much healing... ever hear that criticism. Rules are part of "systems" if you arent treating them in concert you are doing them wrong. I expect the game designers to have more ability to see that than others.

Yes, rules are part of systems. But was Healing broken, or trivial magic item creation broken?

Let us say I fix healing by saying that you can never heal without magic of X level. Does that fix the problem? No. Because you still have trivial magic item creation. That is the part that has the problem, so if you want to fix it, you have to focus there.

Rules have purposes and its a very very narrow and non game designer view to treat them like you do not know the purpose and goal of particular rules it seems well deceptive ( for the game designers in my opinion ). It is presenting a cosmetic shadow that will not serve the purpose it fulfilled (like healing surges which do not limit healing). I would say variant rules should start with comments about what the goal of this rule is... and follow through with a rule variant to fulfil that.

I would say I agree that that the variant rule should state it's purpose. And healing surges do just that: "This optional rule allows characters to heal up in the thick of combat and works well for parties that feature few or no characters with healing magic, or for campaigns in which magical healing is rare."

The rule isn't meant to reduce the amount of healing, it is meant to increase it for parties that lack magical healing for one reason or another. Allowing them to heal during a combat.

And, the rule does exactly that. Giving players an action (or bonus action if you want even more healing) to essentially get the benefit of a short rest during combat. And then changes the amount of hit dice you recover during rests, since you will be spending more of them for healing.

If you read the rule expecting it to limit healing, that is on you, not the rule, because the purpose of the rule was clearly stated. Now, that might not be the case for all of the rules, but this one seems pretty clear cut.

The purpose of flanking was never to "give combatants a simple way to gain advantage on attack rolls against a common enemy". Advantage is pretty pervasive already IMO why would i want that...

It was a component of the rules to make position significant. Present a collection of rules if you must for the overarching purpose. Then show how the component
provides in this case "reward for position" creates incentive to offset other components that provide difficulties for achieving position.

Flanking was part of a collection of rules, you just said that. So, we need to look at a collection of rules.

The point of flanking always was that if you achieved optimal positioning, it became easier to hit an opponent (which advantage gives us) and it was the other rules which made the movement more difficult and gave other advantages.

Also, it doesn't matter if you don't want more advantage, Flanking states its purpose, and fulfills that purpose. If you want other rules, you need to look at and for other rules.

While misnamed the 5e healing surges actually do accomplish what they are labelled to do ... not actually seeing a variant rule that even seems to try an implement how 4e limited every source of healing based on the internal awesome of the characters.

Because they didn't include it.

So, you'll have to make your own. They also didn't include the healing of 3.5 where you gained 1 hp a day, or equal to your level, or whatever it was.



Hyperbole ... not impossible but so completely not trivial like many seem to present. I almost like my solution to the Fear spell but what other dozen spells and feats are going to popup that have a cascade off of it? I think the game designers themselves were in a much better position to have considered them when producing the rules and variant rules. Starting from more complex design then simplifying so that the variants are basically bringing in the complex rules in a coherent systematized actually modular goal driven way. I think of it perhaps from an engineering perspective.

Engineering is a fine way to look at it, but misses the point of what the designers were doing.

Let us take building a house, an engineering and architectural feat. You can go in, and you can plan how the house will lay, how it will be affected by sunlight, where the pipes will connect to the sewage system, how the electrical systems are laid out.

Now add in the fact that you can change the position of the sun. You can change the tensile strength of the wood being used to build the house. You can alter the strength of the nails being used to hold it together. You are also designing the entire sewer system the house connects to, altering all of its properties. You can also change how electricity is affected by gravity and what materials are conductive and which aren't.

Sure, building a house and taking into consideration all of the factors needed to make a good house can be difficult, because you are accounting for a lot of potential problems.

Doing so while also designing the very baseline reality those problems exist in is many magnitudes of difficult higher.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Flanking was part of a collection of rules, you just said that. So, we need to look at a collection of rules.
Yup and they effectively did not do that when they presented the rule in the DMG they presented a brick when it needs to have 2 others underneath to make it hold up the platform if you will. The purpose of the brick was being part of holding up a platform.
 

dave2008

Legend
I remember the era where nobody went on line and found easy combos I think it passed however long ago.
Not sure what you are talking about. But if your talking about optimizing, my players generally don't, nor do they look things up on line. Heck, they don't even take their character sheets with them, they stay at my house! But even if they did, that doesn't invalidate my point.

Also, it is not like my group's play style is unique. Heck, I believe it was in this very thread where someone said their players don't really even know the rules, they just come to roleplay and the DM (the poster) adjudicates the action. I think a lot of us who came from 1e and newer "roleplay first" groups have this mindset. Less rules for the players and more roleplaying and story for the players.
 

Oofta

Legend
<RANT>
Just to reiterate something @Chaosmancer said.

I agree that no game is perfect. It's just not possible. But what bugs me are the constant insults directed at the authors of 5E.

From my perspective they had a monumental task. D&D was flailing. The second edition in a row wasn't working and they had one last chance to get it right with another edition. I suspect that if 5E had been a failure, the department would have been shut down.

Fortunately, they knocked it out of the park and now it's selling better than ever. Did they do everything like I would have done it? No, and thank goodness.

So get over yourself when you say that the designers failed. Or that 5E is a mess because it's not more like 3.5 or 4. Both those versions saw plummeting sales a couple of years after release unlike 5E which is still growing year in and year out.

The designers of 5E did an amazing job, they deserve accolades. They don't deserve armchair quarterbacks telling the world that they f'ed up because, thank goodness, they didn't implement the rules exactly how you would of done it.
</RANT>

I'll now we return you to the never ending bickering about how 5E would have been so much better had it only been more like a previous version.
 

Yardiff

Adventurer
Do the time intense stuff too often i think it can feel heavy handed but I find players who have motivations in story for what happening are cool with quite a bit of it.

True, the game I'm currently in is like that and is starting to wear a little. Havent had time to anything ona personal level or just stock up on crafted stuff like scrolls. Still having fun but...
For 2 real years we've been on a 'doom' clock.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I'll now we return you to the never ending bickering about how 5E would have been so much better had it only been more like a previous version.
Currently complaining the design goal of being modular was not really accomplished in a way that allows those who want to have even reasonable tactics to adapt it to their purpose without very large amounts of work.
But every criticism is met on here with ad populum... so I am not expecting better.
 


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