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5E Is 5e Heroic, or SUPER-heroic?

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
While I agree with the rest, a 20th level Wizard has 1 slot of levels 9 and 8 and multiples of each other level (plus arcane recovery) and (presuming the use of magic items) likely a lot more firepower from a staff or scrolls.

He also has a clone. In a demi-plane. And a simulacrum. And Wish.

Your martials should be just as effective, in other ways (plus items).
Hey but maybe I can hit something 1 more time.
 

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Hey but maybe I can hit something 1 more time.
Not quite. In any campaign with Magic Items, high level martials are capable of a lot more tricks than just hitting things more. The Casters can certainly pull out more impressive tricks, but they're limited with slots (I cleave pretty closely to the longer adventuring day, so Nova tactics are generally not a thing in my games).

I found the classes quite balanced all through 20 levels. The Swashbuckler/ Fighter was a consistent source of around 75 damage per round (double that on a crit) and could take an absolute pounding with Uncanny Dodge, decent hit dice and a Con of 20 (plus 2 epic boons of health and invulnerability).

The casters could pull out some neat tricks, but the Fighter/ Swashbuckler was the reliable beatstick (who never failed a Skill check with a DC of less than 25-27, ever thanks to reliable talent and expertise).

It's pretty cool to ask for a near impossible Skill check (DC 25), have all the PCs needing a 17+ on the D20 to succeed, and just have the Swashbuckler say 'I made it' without even needing to roll.
 

I get it. But, DM'ing a game where one player is trying to go one way, other players another way, and the DM corralling them through force has never appealed to me. I like tables best when everyone is after the same goal - a good story.
Im not talking about force; it just seems like you have a trouble player. Part of the DMs job is to teach the game (and that includes showing players how to not be bad players).
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
(I cleave pretty closely to the longer adventuring day, so Nova tactics are generally not a thing in my games).
Which makes you atypical in the broader D&D land. Also for me what is given by skill checks are just too undefined and anecdotally seems for 5e DMs (aside from a few who cut their teeth on 4e) to be based on what somebodies next door neighbor might do. Ie the propaganda saying that without magic adventuring will be 10 x more difficult took and will hold for a long time.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
No, it doesn't. Your anecdotal experiences dont match mine.
The polls wrt to number of encounters and adventuring day length match my anecdotes (the anecdotes about skills being treated as very mundane are just anecdotes)

Edit: Had to clarify....
 



Also note that many groups (and DMs) tend to conflate 'Adventuring day' with 'Game session'.

They're not even remotely the same thing.

Whenever you see 'We only run 3 hour sessions so dont have enough time for more than 1 or 2 encounters..' responses, you know those guys are in this camp of getting those two things confused.
 


How about one where you have an actual decent number of votes? like in the thousands

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Read the comments. Most of them are talking about how many encounters they get per session. In fact, I'd go further and assert it's impossible in any dungeon to only average 1-2 encounters per day (between 8 hour long rests).

In other words, I don't trust the polls results.

Its something I encounter on here as well. People conflate 'adventuring days' with 'game sessions'. They're not the same thing.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Read the comments. Most of them are talking about how many encounters they get per session. In fact, I'd go further and assert it's impossible in any dungeon to only average 1-2 encounters per day (between 8 hour long rests).
Dungeon may be the issue... as far back as 1e the published dungeons seemed to be ill designed in many ways. So what I ran was independent. I think I recall when that happens we often have a parties 3rd combat ends up being a chase scene and regrouping so they can get somewhere and analyze the problem revealed by the first few fights, Subsequent mystery also ends up being preparatory sequences with only a few physical conflicts and a climactic culmination which may end up 2 more or less planned fights and a final third being more of a big bad.

Spreading these things out over more than one day seems to generally be the norm or atleast perfectly reasonable.

In other words, I don't trust the polls results.
Too small of poll is another reason to not trust a poll but its entirely reasonable to distrust a poll with a singular expression presented one way. Pew polls generally express the same concepts multiple ways to narrow down nuances in meaning.

5e further complicated issues with short rest resources with martial classes only interesting features being driven by that. --> Aside from the I hit it one more time.
 
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Dungeon may be the issue... as far back as 1e the published dungeons seemed to be ill designed in many ways. So what I ran was independent.
Cool, but I'm talking about default DnD where the core adventuring locale is a 'dungeon' of several closely linked encounters in a small geographic area.

As presented in nearly every single adventure written, throughout 5 editions, ever, and represented in the name of the game.

Spreading these things out over more than one day seems to generally be the norm
No, it's not. You dont do rooms 1 and 2 of the 'catacombs of terror' then fall back for a sleep for the night, before doing rooms 3 and 4.

If your group are doing that, your DM needs a kick up the backside.

Too small of poll is another reason to not trust a poll but its entirely reasonable to distrust a poll with a singular expression presented one way. Pew polls generally express the same concepts multiple ways to narrow down nuances in meaning.
When you read the comments you'll see what I mean. Most of them are conflating 'session' with 'adventuring day'.

I'm wary of the results as a consequence.
 


Do you remember the reason WOTC gave about not really selling those...."pre written adventures"
We're still getting them. Every single adventure written to date can be surmised as 'Head to Dungeon X. Do thing. Wander around overground and roleplay and rest a bit. Now head to Dungeon Y. Do thing. Repeat.'

They're all a collection of several dungeons scattered around a largish area the PCs walk around and explore.

That's the crux of DnD. Enter a dungeon (ruin, forest, castle, maze whatever) kill stuff.

It's utterly impossible (barring an incompetent DM) to only have 1-2 encounters per Long rest in anything resembling a normal DnD 'dungeon'.
 


The answer to the question was few people bought them most adventures being played are custom made to suit the players and DMs

Like my zombie plague mystery I made a synopsis of.
I get that your games of Dungeons and Dragons dont feature Dungeons and Dragons, but I'd wager you're in the minority there, and if you're not, the basic premise and assumptions of the game doesn't change.

The basic premise of the game is a small band of (4-5) characters with diverse skill sets, entering dungeons and dealing with traps, monsters and environmental and social challenges located in close proximity with each other.

This has been the case since Gygax ran his group through the ruins of Greyhawk dungeon, and has been played out in tournaments, represented in modules and adventure paths and adventurers league games for literally 5 iterations of the game over 40 years.

Not saying what you're doing is 'wrong'. Just making the point that the essence of the game is pretty much 'get quest, enter dungeon, slay monsters, deal with BBEG, divide the loot'.

If you're playing against those assumptions, then obviously, your results may vary.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I am sure some home games or even many are also patterned after the methodological genocidal clearing a location is that the only thing supported?
 


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