D&D 5E Is 5e Heroic, or SUPER-heroic?

[Doug McCrae]

OP seems to be talking about the capabilities of the protagonists rather than other genre elements such as motivation, epic-ness, and setting. The former is what's usually meant when D&D characters are compared to superheroes.

 

[Tonguez]

Sure, it is heroic.

60 to 1 is more superheroic.

No the Sinister Six are a thing because fighting 60 is even too gonzo for Supers

 

[DND_Reborn]

No the Sinister Six are a thing because fighting 60 is even too gonzo for Supers

I have no idea what you are talking about... so, I'll leave it at that.

 

[Tonguez]

The illead doesnt become a superhero genre poem because it includes fighting gods. As much as you wish it would.

Except that a lot of theoretic analysis of Superhero fiction place it firmly within the context of new mythology with roots in Greek/Hellenistic models of god-kings.
The Justice League Watchtower is the new Olympus and Superman a messianic saviour. You even get scholarly debates concerned with the cultural and psychological place of super hero myth in modern society.

The creators of DC and Marvel were even explicit about it when they adapted Wonder Woman and Hercules and named teams things like “New Gods” and “Teen Titans”.

 

[Scott Christian]

I think 5th Edition characters start out as super-heroes at 1st level, and become extremely powerful, world-destroying gods by 10th level (compared to other editions, anyway.) They start out Super, and end up being godlike destroyers of worlds by the time they hit the level cap.

Case in point, characters of all classes start out as basically Wolverine or Deadpool, able to automatically heal even the gravest of wounds by sitting still for an hour (sometimes less.) By mid-level, they leave most comic book characters in the dust.

This is a great point and a discussion I have had with friends. Players that want to model their characters after superheroes or supervillains have a very hard road. They want to act like the hero or villain at level 3 or 4 or 5. But, those heroes or villains are literally godlike in their powers from the beginning, so the mindset doesn't necessarily work. It negates the reminder to PC's that they can easily be defeated by the baddies around them. This is especially true for a sandbox campaign.

It is nice to remind players that do attempt to model their character after a superhero or villain that they need to think of their character almost as a hero ro villain prior to their origin story.

 

[TheSword]

Except that a lot of theoretic analysis of Superhero fiction place it firmly within the context of new mythology with roots in Greek/Hellenistic models of god-kings.
The Justice League Watchtower is the new Olympus and Superman a messianic saviour. You even get scholarly debates concerned with the cultural and psychological place of super hero myth in modern society.

The creators of DC and Marvel were even explicit about it when they adapted Wonder Woman and Hercules and named teams things like “New Gods” and “Teen Titans”.

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I have no doubt that comic books draw heavily on Mythology, either obliquely or even directly - Thor for instance.

That doesn’t change those original myths into superhero fiction. It just means superhero fiction is inspired by myth... just like many other types of fiction are.

I should also say that superhero fiction is recognized as a separate genre of speculative fiction to fantasy, sci-fi, historical fiction etc. I’m not just making this up.

 

[pemerton]

Saying "D&D characters are the Avengers" isn't really saying much.

To me it is saying something. It establishes a clear contrast between D&D and some other fantasy/mediaeval RPG systems. I've been running a lot of Prince Valiant lately, and there is no framework within Prince Valiant in which the characters become anything like the Avengers.

The same is true for Burning Wheel, Pendragon and some versions of RuneQuest.

The gonzo fantasy aspects of D&D that are coming out particularly clearly in @Flamestrike's posts are distinctive to D&D and other FRPGs that closely emulate it. (Eg high level Rolemaster can get pretty close to high level D&D.)

 

[Flamestrike]

To me it is saying something. It establishes a clear contrast between D&D and some other fantasy/mediaeval RPG systems. I've been running a lot of Prince Valiant lately, and there is no framework within Prince Valiant in which the characters become anything like the Avengers.

The same is true for Burning Wheel, Pendragon and some versions of RuneQuest.

The gonzo fantasy aspects of D&D that are coming out particularly clearly in @Flamestrike's posts are distinctive to D&D and other FRPGs that closely emulate it. (Eg high level Rolemaster can get pretty close to high level D&D.)

Yeah man totally agree.

DnD has some gonzo assumptions in its core rules. A casual look at the class features that come online from T2 onwards clearly shows this, as does a casual glance at the expectations of play at higher tiers. The DMG expressly breaks these tiers down into:

• Tier 1: Levels 1-4 - Local Heroes.
• Tier 2: Levels 5-10 - Heroes of the Realm.
• Tier 3: Levels 11-16 - Masters of the Realm.
• Tier 4: Levels 17-20 - Masters of the World.

At even lowly Tier 1, the PCs are the local heroes (equal in status to MCU's Netflix Defenders) with the same level of power and responsibility; defeating local threats to the city or town or region of the realm they find themselves in. They're no match for Avengers level superheroes, but they're 'street level' heroes in their own right.

By T2-3 the PCs are at X-Men levels of power. Able to save the entire realm from existential threats, using amazing powers including flight, shapeshifting, raising the dead, firing energy beams, disintegrating things, controlling the elements and the weather, teleporting, beating up Demons with their bare fists, taking on fire breathing dragons and winning, and so forth.

By T4, the PCs are at MCU Avengers levels of power. They're literally manipulating cosmic energy, altering reality, travelling to (and creating) alternate dimensions, cloning themselves, achieving superhuman stats (over 20) via tomes and boons or even simply via class features, matching wits with and defeating Gods and Dukes of Hell in a fist fight, and dealing with existential threats to the whole world (or perhaps even the entire universe).

I dont run 'gonzo' campaigns as a rule, and cleave pretty closely to the DMG expectations of magic item distribution, and run core campaign worlds, with core classes, and few house rules. My 20th level PCs likely have a legendary item or two, a rare or very rare item or two and a few uncommons. There might be an artifact in the party (befitting 20th level PCs'), and they've likely come across the odd Tome or received the odd Boon with every PC boasting at least one superhuman Ability score of over 20.

That's not unusual for high level play, and I've run (and played in) a number of high level campaigns across the editions in over 35 years of play, and it's consistent in the core assumptions.

Now again; people can run games without magic items, or with house rules designed to curb those levels of power (fumble rules, instant death rules, other nerfs). But the fact remains if you cleave to the expectations of core DnD, you're winding up with (and are expected to wind up with) heroes capable of dealing with existential threats to the whole world, if not the entire universe, by the time you hit T4.

 

[Flamestrike]

Thor the Barbarian (Storm Herald) 20 - [Hammer of thunderbolts (attuned), Belt of giant strength, gauntlets of Ogre power (both worn, not attuned), Cloak of protection (attuned), adamantine half plate, javelin(s) of lightning, ring of Air elemental command (attuned, activated)] GWM feat.

Strength: 28, Con 24. Fly speed. Can cast Chain lightning, Gust of wind or wind wall. All the usual Barbarian 20 goodness.

Iron Man the Artificer (Armorer) 20 - [+2 full plate, ring of protection, boots of flying, cloak of displacement, wand of fireballs, Belt of Giant strength, wand of lighting bolts, Tome of Intelligence and many more - hey he IS a 20th level Artificer!]

Strength 21, Int 22. Fly speed, magic missile, lightning bolt, lightning launcher, spell-casting, wall of force (fluffed as armor gadgets). Great at making stuff.

Doctor Strange the Wizard (War Magic) 20. [Robes of the Archmage, ring of wizardry, cloak of the Bat]

He's a 20th level Wizard. Need I say more?

Scarlet Witch the Warlock (Seeker) 20.

Black Panther the OH Monk 17, Rogue (Scout) 3

I could go on, but you get the picture.

 

[TheSword]

Thor the Barbarian (Storm Herald) 20 - [Hammer of thunderbolts (attuned), Belt of giant strength, gauntlets of Ogre power (both worn, not attuned), Cloak of protection (attuned), adamantine half plate, javelin(s) of lightning, ring of Air elemental command (attuned, activated)] GWM feat.

Strength: 28, Con 24. Fly speed. Can cast Chain lightning, Gust of wind or wind wall. All the usual Barbarian 20 goodness.

Iron Man the Artificer (Armorer) 20 - [+2 full plate, ring of protection, boots of flying, cloak of displacement, wand of fireballs, Belt of Giant strength, wand of lighting bolts, Tome of Intelligence and many more - hey he IS a 20th level Artificer!]

Strength 21, Int 22. Fly speed, magic missile, lightning bolt, lightning launcher, spell-casting, wall of force (fluffed as armor gadgets). Great at making stuff.

Doctor Strange the Wizard (War Magic) 20. [Robes of the Archmage, ring of wizardry, cloak of the Bat]

He's a 20th level Wizard. Need I say more?

Scarlet Witch the Warlock (Seeker) 20.

Black Panther the OH Monk 17, Rogue (Scout) 3

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Yes. You can mimic the abilities of popular superheroes using 5e rules. That’s due to the flexibility of 5e rules. It was recognized from the start and the flexibility is why I love it.

Doctor Strange is based on a superhero adaption of a wizard. Why do you think it is odd that a wizard character could be built to resemble doctor strange?

Thor was a inspired by a Norse warrior? What clever point is being made by saying a Norse warrior could be made to resemble Thor?

My problem is that this circular logic is used to claim 5e characters are superheroes. Rather than the claim “I can if I choose use the 5e rules to make a character that resembles a superhero.”

The definition of Superhero fiction isn’t power level. As has been said comic book heroes range in power from the sublime to the ridiculous as various authors chose. It’s down to the themes and style.

People have been saving the world in fantasy stories for 6 decades. That doesn’t make a fantasy story into superhero fiction.