Undrave
Legend
I'm just not sure what non-caster were expected to DO in such encounters aside from not dying.
D&D 5E Is 5e the Least-Challenging Edition of D&D?
- Thread starter Retreater
- Start date
I'm just not sure what non-caster were expected to DO in such encounters aside from not dying.
Helldritch
Hero
The underline text in response is almost all that is needed to build challenging encounters in 5ed. You have to vary your monster types and use terrains and situation to the best of the monster's capacities.
Aside from the Solo BBEG, 5ed works out pretty good.
You don't even need the optional rules in the DMG.
All you need is a bit of work.
fearsomepirate
Hero
Yes, you do "builds" in 5e by multiclassing to take advantage of archetype features. And? Your point originally was that it is impossible to create a crit-fishing build. Your new point, is, I guess, sure it's possible, but you are mad that you have to do it with multiclassing instead of feats.
The "problems" you raised were a list of things that you thought are impossible in 5e. When everyone piled on to prove you wrong by citing the actual rules, you shifted modes to saying the real problem is that those things don't matter [because other ad-hoc reasons].
The real problem is that it's now obvious to everyone, particularly those of us who have been DMing 5e since it came out, that you don't really know 5e at all. You don't know the rules, the mechanics, the classes, or the spells.
To the extent your strategy consists of selecting feats, it's not something you can change when faced with a new monster, since 3.5 doesn't allow hot-swapping feats. If you didn't build your Fighter for massive spike damage, and the DM throws in a monster that can only be killed that way, then your actual strategy is to wait it out while the casters take care of it (i.e. 99% of high-level 3.5 play).
Chaosmancer
Legend
Posted in that other thread.
Incorrect, what I said was this & both of these statements are true
- in this case crit fishers couldn't help (and were dramatically more effective at getting crits even at level 1 in 3.5 than 5e's mid-late game ones)
- n a discussion about ways of bypassing dr10 having crit fishing builds much more reliable(they could get down to like 12 or 13-20 iirc) is relevant. 19-20 is just not enough to say that champion is a crit fishing build in that context because they are going to be too rare for any meaningful impact on needing to do 10+ damage or deal no damage.
As to your claim that builds in 5e are from multiclassing, that runs into two problems.The first problem is that you are joining in alongside people saying some of these things were removed to allow magic items to be an optional thing rather than a required thing & multiclassing is another optional rule. The second problem is that it requires champion levels, show me a crit fisher with levels in EK, battlemaster, samurai, arcane archer, or cavalier & you might have a point,
we've been over this with how these creatures affect the combat, you just are unable to put the pieces together, leading to why I wondered earlier if it was unwitting confusion or deliberate bad faith debate. In that light though, take a simple group of fighter rogue cleric ranger wizard.
Immediately this comes into play
- Later the party has learned to keep 2-3 damage types handy even if two of them are dagger(slash pierce) or morningstar(bludgeon/pierce) simple weapons. The party had no trouble chewing through
The rogue has been considering one of the many ways to sneak attack undead rather than his original plans because the gm has warned them this will continue to be an undead heavy campaign a few times over the last few levels. The ranger's +2 flaming longbow is at a disadvantage because the 1d8+2 shaves off the first 5 points so he needs to roll 4 or better to do even 1 point there, but the 1d6 of fire damage is doing great against those distant skeletons on ledges & stuff shooting down at the party. Meanwhile, the fighter puts away his +2 icy burst heavy flail & pulls out his mere +1 longsword to deal with the zombies here at the gatehouse. - Things are a little too easy though & that rogue is feeling a bit off kilter as noted & three more zombies charge in with a wooden crate they immediately smash a couple squares from the fighter & gate guard zombies. Inside the crate is.....
-
Immediately the fighter & cleric take some opportunity attacks because he was running away faster than the pee was streaming down his leg. The rogue steps in with her leather armor & proceeds to save the day & be awesome in the spotlight by beating it mercilessly with her sap because the cleric is about to follow the fighter. Luckily now with the rogue in place the fighter & cleric can scoot around the back to carefully attack the bunch of zombies but can't just use their full movement to get into the most opportune position beating on the necromancer because they previously learned how terrifying that single
[*]
beside him is heading up to his tower because moving through that many threatened squares would be pretty deadly from opportunity attacks. Sure he wizard considered zapping him from range, but scorching ray only had a range of25ft+5ft/2 levels & his fireball would have ought his allies so was a nonoption. - Having recovered from the most frightening things of the day, the party has a few wounds but nothing serious they make their way to the top of the necromancer's tower but he's had ample time to get his ritual rolling because "omg there was a wight y0!" plus a bunch of
were along the way. Killing them wasn't so bad, but having to use silvered daggers or just rely on the elemental components of their weapons slowed things down. As expected, the crit fishing rogue chewed them up... the wizard got in a few good scorching ray/fireball/etc to speed things up at a couple points that looked a little hairy so it was good he didn't waste his spell slots on trash earlier.
- Having thwarted the necromancer & killed him off, the party is later hired to deal with a problematic crypt recently uncovered in the swamps. Being in the swamp, the party can expect some
so lready the difficulty is going to be turned up a notch, especially for the non-fighter types with a poor con save. Once they fail to save againsta single trog's stench it will be there for the next day so even the fighter has a decent chance if they encounter enough compared to 5e where they save each round & it lasts only till their next turn with immunity for one hour once they save.
- By this point, the party is in no way lowish or mid level... Even though the party mowed through the trogs with nearly no use of resources because their full weapon damage plus elemental addon damage was available including all of their class abilities like sneak attack they have some weights on them in the form of being sickened but that's not a huge deal for them & deal with the remaining trogs in the crypt without much issue but because of sickness have a couple close calls & have a great time.
- By now the fighter has switched to +3 plate +3 shield & a 1 handed weapon for irrelivant reasons making his AC is so high that he ractically could have taken a nap among the trogs. He's really been feeling awesome out there like colossus or juggernaut from xmen, till after they find what the trogs living in the crypt unsealed & start fighting through the various irrelevant undead down in that ancient sealed part of the crypt, even the trogs didn't come down here & survive... out comes a
- That -2 from sickness suddenly matters a whole lot more.... Instantly the fighter looks to the rogue & ranger with good dex as he just lost a bunch of HP & con, the wizard burns his backup mage armor slot on the ranger & tries to scorching ray it, but both rays missed the incorporeal check. so the group does what it can to pull together & is able to eat through the wraith's 32 hp, but without sneak attack & every attack having a 50% chance of doing nothing even if it hits the fight is not easy. Both the fighter & ranger have some con damage but the cleric only has one lesser restoration prepared so the party needs to think if they cast it & on who or if they wait in case they encounter another waith or something.
- With the ranger low on hp due to con damage & fighter not much better, the wizard is feeling a lot more pressure to burn spell slots on things he previously wold not waste them on Unfortunately for him, all of the things in this subcrypt have been tweaked by the gm to have
until the party can find & destroy or deactivate the artifact the trog's turned on so he too is really feeling that sickened state.
Undrave
Legend
Thank you for the play by play. I can see better the expected playstyle and I can see how that would be excting. I'm still not a fan of ability drain or negative level simply on a fiddliness level, but I can see a desire for longer lasting conditions. They just need a better formatting. I see a lot of magical weapons in there though... I'm not sure how 5e would handle that, considering how rare magical items are in the game in genenral.
Touch AC sounds like a good idea until you remember how much of a GOD STAT dexterity already is in 5e, so something would have to go away in its place
As a side note, a Rogue should TOTALLY be able to Sneak Attack with a sap... it's weird that it's entirely missing in 5e. It's not like a club's d4 is any different from a dagger's d4, and the dagger has the bonus to being a thrown weapon too!
Chaosmancer
Legend
Going from "lowish" levels to having multiple +3 items for the fighter, and not a single spell cast in any part of that adventure. Glad the cleric and wizard never had to do anything.
Also, let us look at some minor points.
Those skeletons had 6 hp, with DR 5 except for bludgeoning, that means they die after taking a blow for 11 damage. They still are hurt by anything above a 5. Now, I'm not 100% on average strength scores, but 16 seems to be a relatively good point by 3rd or 4th level. So, the fighter is going to be likely hitting for either 1d8+3 or 1d10+3. Averages there being 7.5 or 9.5. Both are capable of hurting the skeletons, and I'd say it looks like anything above a 3 would hurt them Even from the rogue, who likely is using a finesse weapon (in fact, don't they have a sap when the Rust Monster hits them? Did they start with that or get it later?)
And since we have a Rogue, a Ranger, An Animal Companion (not specified), a Fighter, A cleric and a Wizard (those two having bludgeoning weapons) and the enemies are in a bottleneck from being in a cellar entrance which likely only allows one or two through at a time? Even needing two hits to take them out, without blugeoning weapons the party could still chew through about two or three skeletons a turn. More than enough in a bottle neck situation.
Actually, looking at your zombie example (where multiple party members have multiple powerful magical items it looks like) maybe a 16 stat is too high? The Ranger only has a 14 dex as an archer after all to be doing 1d8+2? Wait, ah, it seems you did not add your dex modifier to damage for ranged weapons. That explains it.
I did find a fun little bit here though, according to my book "Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of damage." That is good to know, since I thought DR canceled damage like it does in 5e. So, the ranger with the +2 flaming longbow just needs to hit to do 1 point of damage, I guess in addition to the fire? Are both reduced separately since zombies seem to subtract 5 from every source except slashing?
Also that "terrifying ghoul" shouldn't even be a threat. It also has 16 hp, and the Ranger seems to be doing 1d8+2+1d6 damage. That is an average of 10, if they are at least 2nd level they have Rapid shot, which means two attacks. This should be an average of 20 damage, leaving the ghoul dead from decent range.
The lemures with 9+5, 14 hp should be even less of a challenge than the zombies. I mean, you gave them silver so this was a single hit per death right?
If the party is "in no way mid level" by the trogs, why are they even getting sickened? Even the rogue by 12th level (we aren't mid, so we have to be past the midway point) has a +4 to the Fort save against the stench. The Fighter is sitting at +8 baseline. With a DC 13, he'd have to roll a 5 or less. And the Ranger, again, can take out a Trog per round. Actually, I think with Rapid Shot they get like 4 attacks? And they probably will have no problem hitting an AC of 15 by this point, even with the penalties on the later attacks.
Also, with the wizard's scorching ray. 25 ft +5 ft for every two caster levels... How is the enemy out of range? Even if they are only level 4 (with multiple magic items) that puts the range at 35 ft. And since they are likely level 12 at the trogs, it makes more sense that the rust monster happens at level 6 or 8, making it 40 or 50ft range. That is pretty dang good for something chasing the fleeing front line.
I'm also not sure why "chewing through" the wraith's hp is hard. You've made this higher level characters. The Wraith has no reduction, the ranger can get 4 attacks with 1d8+1d6+2, which with half missing, 2 hits is 20 damage. Then the Fighter has Another three hits, likely with something like 1d10+1d6+8, which is 17. A single round of attacks would likely drop it unless they get unlucky. And that is ignoring the rogue, wizard, and the cleric.
A cleric, who has turn undead, and doesn't use it.
So really, I'm not sure what you think you were trying to prove, but this seems rife with holes, assumptions, and poor examples taking a group from low to high levels and somehow never having to use anything that you seem to be advocating for.
ability drain & negative levels were tools to be used sparingly but they were incredibly powerful tools where even the possible threat was one worthy of heavy consideration. Doing away with any realistic chance of AoO's & hugely increasing the range on so many things causes problems if you try to just add some of the things needed for gameplay like I described in 5e.
As to doing that without magic weapons.... all the DR's I used were dr5/bludgeoning dr5/piercing & dr5/ good or silver. Silver is pretty readily available even in most non/low magic settings & games given that it's ont of the default currencies outside of darksun. I included an absurdly high number of elemental weapons (2-3 in one party?)in order to show how differently DR made them work from 5e's more dice on the magical hurt stick method & show some of why people grouse about it. in my experience, most magic weapons were not laden with elemental dice & they were super magical when you found one(equivalent to a +1). even without magic, Beric Dondarrion managed to make a flaming sword in GoT (at least the book version). You could easily say that a wetstone or lead core makes a slashing/piercing/bludgeoning weapon have a similar +1d6 effect as these if you wanted to have nonmagic and use those creatures and have a weapon that was reliably decent against things even when the weapon was a damage type it was strong against. Alternately you could remove the DR from those creatures or use a poison coated weapon for +1d6.... you could even say that silver does +1d6 against unnatural things like undead fiends & so on in your no/low magic world
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Facing is trivially easy to replicate, after a fashion, simply by ruling that a shield can only be effective against the first two creatures* that attack you in a round. This way you don't have to fuss with actual directions and facing etc. if you don't want to or if you're doing TotM, but the general idea of "a shield only goes so far" is maintained.
* - swarms being a different ball o' wax altogether.
fearsomepirate
Hero
How does a factually correct claim have problems?
So the problem with making a crit-fishing build in 5e is that you have take crit-fishing options instead of non-crit-fishing options.
This is a very astute observation on your part.
Similar Threads
