Is a dying character still bloodied?

[abyssaldeath]

Use Second Wind: Make a DC 10 Heal check to allow an adjacent character to use his or her second wind without the character having to take an action to do so. The character doesn’t gain the defense bonuses normally granted by second wind. Found under the Heal Skill, First Aid: Standard Action.

Yeah, he mentioned the heal skill in his post. His point was that there are only so many ways to activate Second Wind when you are dieing. Add that to the fact that Second Wind can only be used once in an encounter then CotWW being used while dieing is not that big of an issue. Certainly not a bigger issue than CotWW being used at all.

 

[mattcolville]

They are different conditions, but one does not nullify the other. It would be like if there was a power that read "One dazed or one stunned enemy" or "One unconcious or prone ally". Two seperate conditions, they have similiar effects (stunned is "dazed+" as dying is "bloodied+"), you can be both at the same time.

That seems spurious to me, no one is suggesting that if you are stunned you are also dazed. But people *are* suggesting that if you are dying you are also bloodied. In fact, the point of this thread is that many people take for granted that a dying character is also a bloodied character.

In which case, the bit you quoted would be redundant. All dying characters would also all without exception be bloodied characters. We don't have powers that say "One ally or creature." All allies are always also creatures.

The fact that there are powers that affect bloodied or dying creatures implies to me that they are discrete states and that you cannot be both.

 

[DracoSuave]

That seems spurious to me, no one is suggesting that if you are stunned you are also dazed. But people *are* suggesting that if you are dying you are also bloodied. In fact, the point of this thread is that many people take for granted that a dying character is also a bloodied character.

In which case, the bit you quoted would be redundant. All dying characters would also all without exception be bloodied characters. We don't have powers that say "One ally or creature." All allies are always also creatures.

The fact that there are powers that affect bloodied or dying creatures implies to me that they are discrete states and that you cannot be both.

However, there are seemingly redundant texts in the rules that exist to either foster clarity, or to cover corner cases.

From the book?

You are bloodied when your current hit points drop to your bloodied value or lower. Your bloodied value is one-half your maximum hit points (rounded down). Certain powers and effects work only against a bloodied enemy or work better.

That's it. That's all the rules text on what bloodied is.

Dying:

When your current hit points drop to 0 or lower, you fall unconscious and are dying.


Some things to notice: Bloodied is not a condition. Dying -is- a condition. But they are not mutually exclusive. Bloodied does not mention consciousness or even 'not dying' and dying does not exclude bloodied.

So... if you have the dying condition, chances are you're also bloodied because a negative number is less than a positive number.

 

[keterys]

But, if you have an ability that lets you not count as bloodied (not aware of any, but I am aware of abilities that let you count as bloodied when you're not), dying does not necessarily require bloodied.

Much like dying implies unconscious, but several abilities let you not be unconscious while dying.

 

[ValhallaGH]

But, if you have an ability that lets you not count as bloodied (not aware of any, but I am aware of abilities that let you count as bloodied when you're not), dying does not necessarily require bloodied.

Much like dying implies unconscious, but several abilities let you not be unconscious while dying.

This would be the Exception in Exception-Based Design.

 

[mattcolville]

However, there are seemingly redundant texts in the rules that exist to either foster clarity, or to cover corner cases.

From the book?

You are bloodied when your current hit points drop to your bloodied value or lower. Your bloodied value is one-half your maximum hit points (rounded down). Certain powers and effects work only against a bloodied enemy or work better.

That's it. That's all the rules text on what bloodied is.

Dying:

When your current hit points drop to 0 or lower, you fall unconscious and are dying.


Some things to notice: Bloodied is not a condition. Dying -is- a condition. But they are not mutually exclusive. Bloodied does not mention consciousness or even 'not dying' and dying does not exclude bloodied.

So... if you have the dying condition, chances are you're also bloodied because a negative number is less than a positive number.

Yeah, I know what the book says. I won't be surprised if it turns out dying characters are also bloodied. But I believe we're meant to understand they're discreet states.

 

[Regicide]

It makes Rising Sun a decent power and the PP something other than a waste of space to toss on the massive pile of pointless and underpowered PPs.

 

[chitzk0i]

Yeah, I know what the book says. I won't be surprised if it turns out dying characters are also bloodied. But I believe we're meant to understand they're discreet states.

Meant by whom? If we were "meant to understand" that, then shouldn't there be a shred of evidence in the text?

 

[mattcolville]

Meant by whom?

Henry Kissinger.

If we were "meant to understand" that, then shouldn't there be a shred of evidence in the text?

When you write a rulebook you sometimes don't realize that you needed to explain something, because you, the designer, know all the rules. You take things for granted that the readers don't.

I'm not sure what evidence shreds look like. But I think the wording of the Revive power indicates that a dying character is not bloodied. Though it could just be repetition for emphasis. I try to keep an open mind.