Is a popular non-D&D traditional fantasy RPG possible?

[Joe Sala]

Games like RuneQuest, Ars Magica and Warhammer have endured many publishers and editions, but they are still alive and selling well, and they have strong communities.

Why? Because they offer something different and are extremely good games regardless of D&D.

 

[Remathilis]

You need lightening in a jar...

No D&D clone will ever take off like D&D has, since D&D has carved that road AND has name recognition to boot. You're best bet is to completely avoid the Tolkienisms (elves, pointy-hats, orcs, etc) and try something new (or, since there is nothing new under the sun, a different combination of existing components that hasn't been done).

What that is though, is the lightening. Steampunk? Modern? Savage World? Horror? Swashbuckling? Pirates? Asian? Wuxia? All these have been done.

 

[Bayonet_Chris]

There are plenty of other good fantasy games out there that are popular, but just not as popular as D&D. It doesn't mean they don't have merit. I love 4E, but if D&D was to cease existing tomorrow I could play Shaintar (Savage Worlds) or Burning Wheel and still have a good time with a good story. It seems that it is more a matter of getting people to take a chance on something different than anything else.

 

[Mercurius]

I think you'll need to define "traditional" independently from any particular previous game system before we can really answer this.

That aside, I think you'll find one major flaw in your premise - avoiding the "edition-expansion-new edition-expansion" cycle. This cycle is part of the basic economics of selling to a niche market, which quickly gets saturated. The cycle is the only clear way to keep the market from saturating with your product - by changing the product.

My writing wasn't clear. I did NOT mean to avoid that cycle, but to embrace it to a similar degree as D&D does.

I would have said "Fantasy Heartbreaker" myself. The very premise of it — something very, very, very like a game you're already playing, but juuust different enough that you could theoretically love this one all the more, and could there be enough people that all feel the exact same way that it would be the Number One Not-D&D Game? — is the philosophy that has already launched a thousand such rough beasts.

You guys are cynical and assume the worst, thereby misreading my intention. I am NOT designing my own game, nor am I thinking of designing my own game. Rather, I am wondering what sort of fantasy game might thrive along-side of D&D, and even take a substantial chunk of the market. What you perceive as my (supposed) "Fantasy Heartbreaker" is merely me speculating on what that game might look like.

 

[tenkar]

Roleplaying is a niche hobby.

DnD owns that niche. All other games fight for the crumbs.

A new game, to be even 25% as successful as DnD would actually have to expand the niche that Roleplaying now holds. You aren't going to be stealing gamers from DnD, and there is a limited amount of cash flowing into the hobby as it stands. To increase that cash flow (and direct that increase toward yourself) you would need to bring in new people to the hobby. WotC/Hasbro is trying that to some extent with 4e for their own benefit. A true contender would have to find their own solution to expanding the hobby.

 

[mmadsen]

How much market share did Exalted grab when it came out?

 

[Mercurius]

You need lightening in a jar...

No D&D clone will ever take off like D&D has, since D&D has carved that road AND has name recognition to boot. You're best bet is to completely avoid the Tolkienisms (elves, pointy-hats, orcs, etc) and try something new (or, since there is nothing new under the sun, a different combination of existing components that hasn't been done).

What that is though, is the lightening. Steampunk? Modern? Savage World? Horror? Swashbuckling? Pirates? Asian? Wuxia? All these have been done.

I quote this one because it summarizes many of the previous posts, and with some hesitation I have to basically agree. The implication of what you are saying is that a fantasy game with the type of popularity I am speaking of couldn't be too similar to D&D, and thus would have to be even less "traditional" as D&D already has traditional cornered, even with the newer 4E elements.

In other words, as someone mentioned the 3E fans will just continue with 3E or play Pathfinder, and the niche game fans will stay in their niche. Some kind of new zeitgeist has to be tapped into; the problem with speculating on what that is, is that it is much easier to sort through the past, when it is always something new, something not yet seen.

And you know what? Something probably WILL emerge, if only for a time. It seems that the Number Two game is always either World of Darkness or some "flavor-of-the-year" that is super hot for awhile, then drops back down (below WoD) with a solid, if diminished, following. Exalted seems to be the most recent instance.

How much market share did Exalted grab when it came out?

Good question and I don't know.

The thing with RPG market share is that it is hard to ascertain in that it overlaps as gamers tend to play different games at different times. So you can't really say that "60% of gamers play D&D, while 25% play Wod, 10% Exalted, and 5% everything else" because some of those D&D player are also playing Wod AND Ars Magica AND Buffy AND...etc.

But my sense is that Exalted, for a very short time, was the 2nd most popular RPG out there, then it fell back down below Vampire and/or WoD as a whole. I could be completely wrong, though.

 

[mmadsen]

The thing with RPG market share is that it is hard to ascertain in that it overlaps as gamers tend to play different games at different times. So you can't really say that "60% of gamers play D&D, while 25% play Wod, 10% Exalted, and 5% everything else" because some of those D&D player are also playing Wod AND Ars Magica AND Buffy AND...etc.

But my sense is that Exalted, for a very short time, was the 2nd most popular RPG out there, then it fell back down below Vampire and/or WoD as a whole. I could be completely wrong, though.

As hobbiests, I suppose we want to know how many people are playing each game and how often, but if we're discussing market share, we're interested in revenue -- how many dollars of Exalted products were sold.

 

[Mercurius]

As hobbiests, I suppose we want to know how many people are playing each game and how often, but if we're discussing market share, we're interested in revenue -- how many dollars of Exalted products were sold.

Right, and I wish the figures on RPG economics were available. I would love to see how much $$$ Talislanta has sold vs, say, Ars Magica. I remember Ryan Dancey putting together something, at least in terms of gamer demographics, back at the start of 3E, but haven't seen anything since.

While we're at it, we still need THE History of Role Playing Games to be written. There have been a few books, but none have lasted to get frequent updates.

 

[mmadsen]

Right, and I wish the figures on RPG economics were available. I would love to see how much $$$ Talislanta has sold vs, say, Ars Magica. I remember Ryan Dancey putting together something, at least in terms of gamer demographics, back at the start of 3E, but haven't seen anything since.

Well, Steve Jackson mentions 2007 gross sales "close to $2.88 million" -- of which Munchkin represented more than 70 percent. The bulk of the rest went to GURPS, but that's still well under $1 million for their entire RPG line.