Is an 18/19/20 an absolute must?

[Nai_Calus]

See, I hate this whole thing and the mentality it creates. I just want to play an Eladrin Cleric, damn it, and no, I don't want to point buy an 18 and have the rest of my stats suck horribly.

I've never had a character who started with a 20 in anything and I never will unless we're rolling stats and I get an 18 and I'm playing an 'on' race. I don't even go for 18s in both primary and secondary. I also look at what feats I might want to take and how that works, which can lead to some fairly schizo stat arrays and pretty much always forbids point buying anything above a 16, which will then end up as either a 16 or an 18 depending on whether I'm playing an 'on' race or not. I also tend to like my NADs to not completely suck. (Although they usually do anyway. L5 Swordmage, what are you as the DM going to try to hit him with? Attacks against his 23 AC, or against his 15 Fort?)

And, eh... I pretty much never miss (or hit for that matter) by one. I always either fail spectacularly or succeed wildly. +1 won't help if I miss by four or five all the time.

 

[sfedi]

Well, a +1 will only come up about once every twenty rolls.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

if you stop thinking along the 18/18 lines or 20/14 suddenly multiclassing or even paragon multiclassing can become a really good option. Especially on 16/18 builds with a race that adds to secondary (which should not share the same defense with your primary) but not to primary...

builds with primary and secondary that boost the same defense can also afford to let their secondary a bit lower and instead raise 2 other stats to a 14 at least which opens up multiclassing and good feats.

I hope wizard returns to stat requirement philosophy, now that people start realyizing that 18 (and especially not 20) is not a must

 

[Nifft]

See, I hate this whole thing and the mentality it creates. I just want to play an Eladrin Cleric, damn it

If you're not choosing your race for mechanical reasons, just take the Elf stats, call it an Eladrin, and make an awesome Cleric.

If you want to be an Eladrin for some of the mechanical benefits... well, suck it up.

if you stop thinking along the 18/18 lines or 20/14

Who thinks that?

even paragon multiclassing can become a really good option.

Now that's just crazy talk.

Cheers, -- N

 

[DracoSuave]

If you're not choosing your race for mechanical reasons, just take the Elf stats, call it an Eladrin, and make an awesome Cleric.

That's kinda cheesy.

Besides, being an Eladrin lets you go Eladrin Soldier, which is as good for Eladrin as DWT is for Dwarves. Then go for a Crusader Longsword, shield it up.

If you want to be an Eladrin for some of the mechanical benefits... well, suck it up.

Who thinks that?

Now that's just crazy talk.

Cheers, -- N

And Paragon Multiclassing isn't a bad option. The trade off isn't -that- must of a difference that PMCs are non-viable. 'BUT I WANT MORE FEATURES' doesn't always cut it. Sometimes, the other class just has better powers.

 

[eamon]

That's kinda cheesy.

Besides, being an Eladrin lets you go Eladrin Soldier, which is as good for Eladrin as DWT is for Dwarves. Then go for a Crusader Longsword, shield it up.

Reflavoring isn't cheesy, it's just a normal (and healthy) part of character development. And if you indeed reflavor an entire race (a little extreme, granted) - then you still need to respect one set of mechanics - you can claim elven stats and eladrin feats and call that "reflavoring", after all.

 

[DracoSuave]

Reflavoring isn't cheesy, it's just a normal (and healthy) part of character development. And if you indeed reflavor an entire race (a little extreme, granted) - then you still need to respect one set of mechanics - you can claim elven stats and eladrin feats and call that "reflavoring", after all.

Reflavoring to get something outside the box, that's cool. Reflavoring something to get the advantages of one thing and the advantages of another is obvious min-maxing.

If you're gonna play an elven avenger, just play an elven avenger. If you're gonna play an eladrin avenger, play that. Changing everything around just to get that 18 isn't necessary, a 16 is fine too. And it's not like eladrin is without upside.

In fact, that's sort of the point of this thread. An 18 is nice, but not mandatory, even in a primary (tho it is better in a primary than a secondary, for sure.) And if a 16 is fine, then reflavoring isn't necessary to play the character you want.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Reflavoring to get something outside the box, that's cool. Reflavoring something to get the advantages of one thing and the advantages of another is obvious min-maxing.

If you're gonna play an elven avenger, just play an elven avenger. If you're gonna play an eladrin avenger, play that. Changing everything around just to get that 18 isn't necessary, a 16 is fine too. And it's not like eladrin is without upside.

In fact, that's sort of the point of this thread. An 18 is nice, but not mandatory, even in a primary (tho it is better in a primary than a secondary, for sure.) And if a 16 is fine, then reflavoring isn't necessary to play the character you want.

Exactly. Show me ANY race/class combination and I can show you somebody somewhere that's made a highly effective character using those choices. It will be harder to find a really ineffective character even with the off choices because you really have to work hard to do that.

So I have never bought the whole racial refluffing argument. There's no NEED to have to play the ideal mechanical combination that warrants making a dwarf look like a dragonborn. In the end it seems to me that just homogenizes the characters even more. You want to play a certain combo? Then play it by the rules and figure out a CREATIVE way to build a unique character instead of just saying "My dwarf is 7' tall and scaly and calls himself a dragonborn". Making less do more is the mother of invention after all.

Playing with a 16 primary is often a part of that too. Its perfectly doable and it can be more fun (so can playing a 20 primary sometimes).

 

[Mengu]

Exactly. Show me ANY race/class combination and I can show you somebody somewhere that's made a highly effective character using those choices.

I mostly agree with this, sounds like a fun exercise. Show me a highly effective gnome warden, that one's been troubling me for quite some time.

 

[Nifft]

That's kinda cheesy.

You think reflavoring is cheesy? (Do you know how "cheesy" is usually used in English? Example follows.)

And Paragon Multiclassing isn't a bad option. The trade off isn't -that- must of a difference that PMCs are non-viable. 'BUT I WANT MORE FEATURES' doesn't always cut it. Sometimes, the other class just has better powers.

Multiclassing is fine. Paragon multiclassing is usually a bad idea.

The cheesiest use of a paragon path is often to snag just a path feature or two which are considered to be overpowered when combined with certain class features -- for example, it is often considered cheesy to make an Avenger focused on radiant powers, and then enter the Student of Caiphon paragon path.

But hey, I'm open to correction. Show me some of these "just better powers" which justify chucking out what are often considered the strongest parts of a paragon path.

Cheers, -- N