Is an 18/19/20 an absolute must?

[Infiniti2000]

You seem to be confusing two different editions.

Me? How so? All I did was quote you and ask a question.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Guys (or Gals or whatever...)!

The whole reskinning debate has been recapitulated so many times on every 4e forum there is that its practically a trope. Soon its going to get its own entry on tvtropes!

The long and short of it is that its a matter of perspective. Depending on how you see the contract between the player and the game will cause diametrically opposite viewpoints on the whole reskinning races issue. There's no right or wrong way to look at it and no amount of arguing can erase this dichotomy.

For some people pretending to be a different race than the mechanics you use appears to be nothing more than fluff. "So what if I describe my character like X and call it X?" they say. They're looking at it from a mechanics centered viewpoint. The other side says "If you want to play X, the use the mechanics for X" and these tend to be the people that are primarily interested in the fluff and see mechanics as just how you run the game. To them changing the mechanics of your fluff is essentially cheating. Ironically both of these viewpoints consider fluff important, they just view the contract differently. The people who REALLY don't care about fluff just run the best mechanical character choices and could care less if they're playing a drow or an eladrin or a flying pig.

Anyway, you can't resolve it and you can argue till doomsday about it, but maybe you can make a different thread to do that on? Its fine to argue about, just maybe not here.

 

[eamon]

yes, have your cake and eat it...

also i would bet, that you would be really pissed if i as DM reskin my level 15 drow as lvl 1 goblin and you wonder why you are getting pawned so much...
or my ork ranger using fey step when you close...

or if i describe my solo monster as i have described my minions all the time...

Gaining 14 levels is not a mechanically neutral choice. Neither is upgrading a minion to a solo. If that's what you call reskinning, well, that sort of reskinning is obviously not fair or balanced. However, given a certain build, reskinning to something thematically appropriate (and of similar power level) is perfectly fine, balance wise. That's what were talking about.

An "orc" ranger with a power that's mechanically identical to fey step could be perfectly balanced - but to be thematically appropriate, you'll need to think of some fluff as to why the "orc" (being an eladrin under the covers) has that ability.

Perhaps it's a shadow orc, member of clan stranded on the plane of shadow generations ago. They wasted away, their strength being no match for the ravages of the plane, becoming what they are now - a clan of scrawny orcs that have adapted to being weaker and needing to survive by being faster and smarter. Perhaps they feel shame in having been powerless to stop their own transformation, or perhaps they have disdain for the animals they descended from. In any case, the plane of shadow is part of them, and grants them the power to step through shadows, instantly appearing in a nearby location.

In any case, reskinning is only acceptable as a tool to bend fluff into a more personalized, pleasing shape. It's not acceptable as a tool to gain a mechanical edge. So, for instance, if you claim shadow heritage rather than fey, this may have mechanical repercussions - and that'd need to be OK'd by the DM so they exchange is balanced (as long as you pick feats as if eladrin, it probably matters elsewhere).

 

[UngeheuerLich]

*shame on me*

have some xp^^

edit, i can´t... you already got some from me^^

 

[Nai_Calus]

1. Without reskinning - your character is mechanically an elf. In game, he looks like an elf and calls himself an elf.

2. With reskinning - your character is mechanically an elf. In game, he looks like an eladrin and calls himself an eladrin.

Is there any substantive difference between the two?

Yes. Massively. He's not an Eladrin mechanically.

You are playing an elf Cleric and saying it's an Eladrin, not for any roleplaying reasons, but because they are inarguably *better Clerics* than Eladrin mechanically. Eladrin are terrible clerics, and you know this, so in order to get your powergame on, you decide not to use the race you're supposedly using, and use an entirely different race instead.

Again, back to a non-two-kinds-of-elf-like-objects example: 'Drow make lousy shielding Swordmages, let's play a Githyanki but say I'm a drow!'. You're powergaming there. You're taking something else instead of something that exists, because that something else is simply better mechanically.

Basically, you're taking what you want from item A, the roleplaying benefits, whatever they may be to you, of being an Eladrin. But you don't want the mechanical weaknesses of being an Eladrin Cleric. And then you take what you want from item B, the mechanical benefits of being an Elf cleric - +2 WIS, the re-roll ability, increased speed to counter the speed penalty if you're using heavier armor, Seldarine Dedicate is a nice PP that you already have the proficiency you need for, there's a feat for elf clerics that lets an ally within 5 squares spend a healing surge when you hit with your re-roll, etc.

Mechanically, there is no benefit to taking an Eladrin for Cleric, and some major downsides. So you don't take Eladrin, you take elf, but then you say you're an Eladrin. Rather than actually playing the actual race, you use another race entirely for solely mechanical benefit. That's what's powergaming about it. That's the difference.

The option exists. You don't have to reskin or create anything for it. If someone wants to be, say, half-eladrin; the game doesn't have that. You have to create it or houserule it. You might refluff an existing race. You might houserule an existing race. You might just sit down and make a race from scratch because you feel it's something the game should have. But you're creating something that isn't there. There's no half-eladrin. Half-elf doesn't even take the possibility into account in the writeup. You have to make something up for it.

With playing an Elf but saying it's an Eladrin... There are already Eladrin in the game. They're called Eladrin, they come just before Elf in the PHB, you should check them out. If you want to play an Eladrin, play an Eladrin. Don't pick and choose which race's mechanics you want to have for maximum mechanical benefit. That's where 'powergaming' comes in.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Gaining 14 levels is not a mechanically neutral choice. Neither is upgrading a minion to a solo. If that's what you call reskinning, well, that sort of reskinning is obviously not fair or balanced. However, given a certain build, reskinning to something thematically appropriate (and of similar power level) is perfectly fine, balance wise. That's what were talking about.

An "orc" ranger with a power that's mechanically identical to fey step could be perfectly balanced - but to be thematically appropriate, you'll need to think of some fluff as to why the "orc" (being an eladrin under the covers) has that ability.

Perhaps it's a shadow orc, member of clan stranded on the plane of shadow generations ago. They wasted away, their strength being no match for the ravages of the plane, becoming what they are now - a clan of scrawny orcs that have adapted to being weaker and needing to survive by being faster and smarter. Perhaps they feel shame in having been powerless to stop their own transformation, or perhaps they have disdain for the animals they descended from. In any case, the plane of shadow is part of them, and grants them the power to step through shadows, instantly appearing in a nearby location.

In any case, reskinning is only acceptable as a tool to bend fluff into a more personalized, pleasing shape. It's not acceptable as a tool to gain a mechanical edge. So, for instance, if you claim shadow heritage rather than fey, this may have mechanical repercussions - and that'd need to be OK'd by the DM so they exchange is balanced (as long as you pick feats as if eladrin, it probably matters elsewhere).

no, it is not...

if i just reskin my drows to orcs... ehich are 5 levels lower and my players expect orcs which they fought times and times again, they would be quite annoyed... especially if they throw around feary fire and globes of darkness and use spider poison...

imagine the poor goblin fighting a "drow" player... he expects globes of darkness... and suddenly the guy uses feystep to get out... i would feel cheated...

 

[Nifft]

reskin my level 15 drow as lvl 1 goblin

I don't think you quite understand the concept of "reskinning".

I also created a goliath valorous bard with paragon multiclass barabarian... with howling strike and heart strike his melee damage is 1d10 + 2d6 + 11 at level 11 at +15 (no magic items, no expertise (which i had a spare feat for if i wanted) which is not too shabby...

16/16/13/8/12/16 base stats (including racial) 19/17/14/9/12/19 at paragon... such a build is viable if you accept that you begin your career with a 16 in your main stat.

So your expected damage here is 5.5 + 7 + 11 = 23.5 on a melee attack. You're neglecting magic item bonuses, but why do that? +3 magic item = 26.5, and your attack bonus is +18 at 11th level.

That's nice for what it does (damage), but what you're doing is sacrificing your ability to be a Leader for the illusion of being a Striker. You're dumping a class feature stat (Con) in favor of the Barbarian attack stat (Str).

And for what? I can do most of that damage as a Dwarf Warlock 11 with a melee basic attack (1d10 brutal 2, +2d6 curse, +2 feat, +Str, +enhancement), without any paragon path features or multiclassing trickery: all it takes is one feat. With some path features, it becomes really nasty.

All you're going to do with that PC is die a messy death, since he won't have the AC or HP to stand up in melee -- which is ironic, since a Valor Bard who took the Warchanter paragon path would have the HP for that play style, because he'd gain some access to his own vast farm of temporary HP.

You'd have done better to make a hybrid Barbarian / Bard who took a Bard paragon path. Seriously, trying to pack damage into an attack you can't make often is hardly optimal, especially not for the price you've paid.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

The really funny thing here is that Eladrin only exist because in a previous edition the "supporting fluff" for Elves failed utterly to support their mechanics.

Even if you hate "reskinning", looking at Elves and Eladrin as interchangeable isn't much of a mental leap.

Me? How so? All I did was quote you and ask a question.

Right, but your question made no sense to me. I was saying that Eladrin exist in 4e because Elves had poor "supporting flavor" in 3e. There's no contradiction in that.

(Nor is it directly related to reskinning, except in so far as IMHO Elves and Eladrin are both just a thin layer of skin over a variety of Fey archetypes.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Jhaelen]

I'm generally fine with reskinning. But I demand a good character background if a player asks for it! Then it's definitely a win-win.

Reskinning an elf as an eladrin or vice versa makes a lot of sense to me. Since elves are pretty much eladrins who spent too much time out of the feywild I can see all kinds of intermediate stages of almost-but-not-quite elves/eladrins.

 

[Derren]

I'm generally fine with reskinning. But I demand a good character background if a player asks for it! Then it's definitely a win-win.

Is "But its not powerful enough!" good enough? Because thats what basically started this discussion.