Is an 18/19/20 an absolute must?

[kilpatds]

Is "But its not powerful enough!" good enough? Because thats what basically started this discussion.

The player wouldn't get any grief for playing an Elf cleric, right? That's at a suitable level of power, right?

How about an elf cleric that has a delusion that he's an eladrin? Everyone who sees him knows he's an elf? That's legitimate?

I'm just not seeing how being an Eladrin-skin wearing elf is too good, if the Eladrin-skin confers no net benefits, and being an Elf isn't too good.

 

[Mistwell]

Can we fork the reskinning debate to it's own thread? It's not really about the topic.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I don't think you quite understand the concept of "reskinning".

I do... i think you are just not getting the point so i do it more slowly for you...

The players reskin a drow to an eladrin (two already existing races with thier racial abilities)... so you have drow which can fey step...

I reskin my eladrin as an Orc... players charge in, expect an orc...
they try to block his way so he can´t use his charge attack...

what happens is, that the "orc" uses fey step, the player is pissed, because you screwed his tactic as the fey step just goes around the player, maybe reach a controller the orc would not have reached...

So maybe you don´t understand the concept of reskinning:

it is used for creating non existing races... and when you reskin as DM, you usually use the stats and attacks, but you change the racial ability to the matching race:

(Create a weaker hobgoblin? Use goblin stats and change goblin tactics to hobgoblin resilence, maybe increase Str by 2 and reduce dex by 2)

So your expected damage here is 5.5 + 7 + 11 = 23.5 on a melee attack. You're neglecting magic item bonuses, but why do that? +3 magic item = 26.5, and your attack bonus is +18 at 11th level.

That's nice for what it does (damage), but what you're doing is sacrificing your ability to be a Leader for the illusion of being a Striker. You're dumping a class feature stat (Con) in favor of the Barbarian attack stat (Str).

And for what? I can do most of that damage as a Dwarf Warlock 11 with a melee basic attack (1d10 brutal 2, +2d6 curse, +2 feat, +Str, +enhancement), without any paragon path features or multiclassing trickery: all it takes is one feat. With some path features, it becomes really nasty.

All you're going to do with that PC is die a messy death, since he won't have the AC or HP to stand up in melee -- which is ironic, since a Valor Bard who took the Warchanter paragon path would have the HP for that play style, because he'd gain some access to his own vast farm of temporary HP.

You'd have done better to make a hybrid Barbarian / Bard who took a Bard paragon path. Seriously, trying to pack damage into an attack you can't make often is hardly optimal, especially not for the price you've paid.

Cheers, -- N

You didn´t comment on the other build... so i still consider this a surrender, because i showed a case where PM is better than taking a Paragon path i chose...

You said i should give an example where PM is better than a Paragon path...

And no, my goliath bard was flavour... and i don´t give up all my leader ability... also i have enough hp and i can heal myself and i like the concept...

Of course it is not optimized but very viable... you are not sacrificing too much of the leader ability... you still have song of rest and you still have majestic word and you still grant THP to your friends...
actually i didn´t have goliath greatweapon prowess and howling strike at first, because i usually rather have a longsword and a shield... i could invest in plate armor if i wanted and i could use a heavy shield...

what you are doing is to expect anyone to play like you and consider everything suboptimal not viable... a big mistake if you ask me, but whatever rides your bike...

And actually, i like this concept... as a single player class it looks ok and fun... warchanter also seems like fun, but doesn´t fit into this concept...

edit another mistake you make: you consider MBA as bad options... why? some powers are not better than that damage wise... actually most powers are not better than that damagewise... even using eldritch blast with your warlock doesn´t do more damage... if that is what youwnat to aim for...

The bard however also has a rage power which can even enhance this damage more and maybe generate some nice effects... you are really not grasping the concept of beeing able to adapt to situations...

Sometimes all you need is damage, and then you start raging and help your party with what is needed most... also what any bard needs is proving his companions that he is not a fancy musicion, but someone who can fight if needed... and especially a goliath bard should do that...

also your dwarven warlord is not the most unoptimized (and you needed 2 feats: melee training and dwarven weapon training) Any dwarf with const as attack stat and a hammer does great damage with an at will...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sorry for that...

will stop it...

 

[Nifft]

I do... i think you are just not getting the point so i do it more slowly for you...

The players reskin a drow to an eladrin (two already existing races with thier racial abilities)... so you have drow which can fey step...

I reskin my eladrin as an Orc... players charge in, expect an orc...
they try to block his way so he can´t use his charge attack...

what happens is, that the "orc" uses fey step, the player is pissed, because you screwed his tactic as the fey step just goes around the player, maybe reach a controller the orc would not have reached...

So maybe you don´t understand the concept of reskinning:

it is used for creating non existing races... and when you reskin as DM, you usually use the stats and attacks, but you change the racial ability to the matching race:

(Create a weaker hobgoblin? Use goblin stats and change goblin tactics to hobgoblin resilence, maybe increase Str by 2 and reduce dex by 2)

Reskinning is useful for all sorts of things (so you're wrong there), yet none of those things include changing the level of an antagonist by +10 (so your original example remains wrong).

Sure, explain it slowly for me again, if you must.

You didn´t comment on the other build... so i still consider this a surrender, because i showed a case where PM is better than taking a Paragon path i chose...

You said i should give an example where PM is better than a Paragon path...

And no, my goliath bard was flavour... and i don´t give up all my leader ability... also i have enough hp and i can heal myself and i like the concept...

Of course it is not optimized but very viable... you are not sacrificing too much of the leader ability... you still have song of rest and you still have majestic word and you still grant THP to your friends...
actually i didn´t have goliath greatweapon prowess and howling strike at first, because i usually rather have a longsword and a shield... i could invest in plate armor if i wanted and i could use a heavy shield...

what you are doing is to expect anyone to play like you and consider everything suboptimal not viable... a big mistake if you ask me, but whatever rides your bike...

And actually, i like this concept... as a single player class it looks ok and fun... warchanter also seems like fun, but doesn´t fit into this concept...

edit another mistake you make: you consider MBA as bad options... why? some powers are not better than that damage wise... actually most powers are not better than that damagewise... even using eldritch blast with your warlock doesn´t do more damage... if that is what youwnat to aim for...

The bard however also has a rage power which can even enhance this damage more and maybe generate some nice effects... you are really not grasping the concept of beeing able to adapt to situations...

Sometimes all you need is damage, and then you start raging and help your party with what is needed most... also what any bard needs is proving his companions that he is not a fancy musicion, but someone who can fight if needed... and especially a goliath bard should do that...

also your dwarven warlord is not the most unoptimized (and you needed 2 feats: melee training and dwarven weapon training) Any dwarf with const as attack stat and a hammer does great damage with an at will...

You didn't actually post any builds. Show me the stats, feats, powers, and synergistic equipment.

Or don't. I'm fine if you walk away and "consider... your... self... victorious..."

Cheers, -- N

 

[FireLance]

Basically, you're taking what you want from item A, the roleplaying benefits, whatever they may be to you, of being an Eladrin.

And I think here is the key issue where our views diverge. You assume that there is some roleplaying benefit to playing a member of race X instead of race Y. However, I take the approach that the roleplaying benefits (whatever they are) would be even more equal and have less impact on the power level of the character than the mechanical benefits. If choosing a legal race, legal powers and legal feats for the character is not powergaming, then choosing a different flavor for the character should not be, either.

As I mentioned, I can understand not liking reflavoring because you prefer to tie mechanics and flavor more closely together, but I don't see why it is powergaming.

Anyway, as others have pointed out, this really isn't the thread for this, so if you would like to discuss this further, let's take this somewhere else.

 

[Mengu]

Wow, this got derailed fast.. Quoting from about 2 pages ago to answer a question.

I suppose the key question is: do you believe there is an acceptable range to character viability, or do you believe that characters must always be optimized? In the event that there is a conflict between a character's flavor and concept and his effectiveness in overcoming challenges, is it acceptable for the player to choose the weaker option from time to time, as long as the character is still reasonably effective*? Assume for the sake of argument that there is no third option that suits the character's concept and is just as effective as the more powerful option.

* Assume a moderate level of required effectiveness. After all, the former "acceptable range" philosophy with high levels of required effectiveness tends to approach the latter "always optimize" philosophy anyway.

This is difficult to answer since how optimized a character is, is such a gray area. But my gut answer is, no a character does not need to always be optimized. However people's definition of "acceptable" effectiveness seems to vary. I wouldn't consider a character with a 14 post racial primary stat acceptable.

I also would say a goliath fighter with a starting post racial strength of 16 and constitution of 12 is doing something wrong. I don't care if he wants a melee goliath with 18 charisma, he should then play something else, like I don't know, a bard, a paladin, a warlord...

I just don't understand the insistence on playing something that. It will not work well in combat, and reasons such as "combat is not everything", or "roleplaying is more important" are reasons I'm not totally sold on for playing a sub-par character. Combat is (for me) as significant a part of the game as roleplaying. There are a million viable options. The system is diverse enough to make a character one could enjoyably play in and outside of combat.

 

[keterys]

I wanted to convert a game I'd been running in another system to 4e... they were all humans in that other system. I told them to pick any race they wanted, still call themself human. I just don't see how it's bad at all.

I mean, if a player charges an orc expecting to stop him, but it's an orc (warlock/swordmage/sorcerer/wizard/etc) it can teleport past and do stuff. Or it could just be that there's a specific tribe of Star Orcs who traipse the cosmos, including the ability to step into the Astral and back out... and that's... bad?

An Sun Elf cleric and a Moon Elf cleric have the same stats, but most Sun Elves are really Eladrin (or is it moon? I forget how FR does it). Is there a mechanical imbalance? Nope. Does that allow the character to say they're a relative to another elf or fit in better with the town or whatever RP reason they want to be an Eladrin? Sure.

Game on.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I wanted to convert a game I'd been running in another system to 4e... they were all humans in that other system. I told them to pick any race they wanted, still call themself human. I just don't see how it's bad at all.

I mean, if a player charges an orc expecting to stop him, but it's an orc (warlock/swordmage/sorcerer/wizard/etc) it can teleport past and do stuff. Or it could just be that there's a specific tribe of Star Orcs who traipse the cosmos, including the ability to step into the Astral and back out... and that's... bad?

An Sun Elf cleric and a Moon Elf cleric have the same stats, but most Sun Elves are really Eladrin (or is it moon? I forget how FR does it). Is there a mechanical imbalance? Nope. Does that allow the character to say they're a relative to another elf or fit in better with the town or whatever RP reason they want to be an Eladrin? Sure.

Game on.

I think that depends on the setting. There are specific settings where it could make perfect sense to allow unlimited reskinning of one race as another. OTOH I do have rather a "this is kind of hokey" sort of reaction to it as a general thing in fairly typical fantasy setting. I'd kind of rather see players do the leg work and I don't really see much to the mechanical argument as all PCs are pretty close in combat power and outside of combat there's really not much way to gauge effectiveness in some general way.

Looking at the Eladrin Cleric that was batted around earlier. I don't see this character as being a terrible character at all. use the 16/16/12/11/11/8 array and you wind up with a 16/11/13/14/16/8 for stats. Makes an OK basic STR cleric, has a pretty good even spread on defenses, and can make good use of Eladrin Soldier. He could even swap WIS for INT at the cost of a point of bonus on some powers and MC to wizard. He could also MC fighter and do some nice polearm stuff with the greatspear or some Fey Charging. He could swap CHA and STR and do laser cleric stuff. Sure, elves have a WIS bonus, but so what? It just won't cripple the character to have a 16 prime req and his good performance with INT based skills, decent access to a couple good MCs and with the STR build good access to eladrin racial feats is fine. As a cleric he can use good heavy armor. Fey step is useful to ANY character and he can leverage it as much as he wants. Just being able to 'port over to the guy that needs healing RIGHT NOW and lay it on is pretty nice. He sure as heck isn't gimped out of combat. The worst you can say about this PC is vs an elf he's maybe going to miss once every 2-3 fights because of a one lower ability bonus. His longsword proficiency is great to give him the +3 weapon he should have and its like a free feat almost. It isn't really as bad as it was made out to be.

 

[keterys]

Who said Eladrin clerics have to be bad, for someone to want to use Elf stats?