Is an unsafe floor a trap?

[DSC-EricPrice]

Lets assume you have a room where the floor is no longer safe. The rock beneath is eroded, the beams are rotten, whatever.

Is the floor a trap in terms of being able to be discovered by a rogue? By anyone else? If so, how do you adjudicate "disable device"? Obviously the rogue cant "disarm" the floor.

 

[Pbartender]

Anyone can discover an unsafe floor or a trap... All it requires is a Search check. The one qualifier is that only Rogues can find traps that have a Search DC of 20.

So, anyone should be to Search (or Spot) for a weak floor. Elves would get the Serach check automatically, and Dwarf should get a +2 bonus from the Stonecunning ability.

 

[dcollins]

Is the floor a trap in terms of being able to be discovered by a rogue? By anyone else? If so, how do you adjudicate "disable device"? Obviously the rogue cant "disarm" the floor.

It absolutely should be considered a trap. It's exactly the same kind of environmental hazard which should be recognizable by a Search check -- perhaps even easier, since it's not intentionally hidden.

There was actually an AD&D 2nd Edition adventure, "Axe of the Dwarvish Lords", which asserted the opposite, much to my disappointment. (In an attempt to make a clever goblin tribe a high-level challenge, they asserted that a bunch of weak structures like collapsing ladders and rooms, etc., were not traps and so undetectable by rogues.) I recommend that no one do the same.

You could adjudicate "Disable Device" as (a) there being no device to disable in this case, or (b) the rogue can point out the strong places to walk on, bypassing the danger.

 

[Alchemist]

Indeed, or "disabling" this "trap" could involve laying down planks to distribute the party member's weight better, so they don't fall through. I think environmental hazards make great traps for the characters to stumble through.

mmm...quicksand...

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Count me in with the above. If you didn't count things like this as traps, what do you do when someone builds an unsafe floor on purpose? Now the two (physically identical) floors somehow "know" whether they were made to be a trap or just fell into disrepair? No thank you.

 

[bret]

Count me in the group that says it is not a trap.

You would use Search to find it, but what you would find is the unsafe floor. If it was hard to identify (high search DC), then it might take someone with K:Architechure & Engineering to understand it is unsafe.

The big thing that separates traps from non-traps is if it is hard to find (DC 20 or higher search), can someone other than a Rogue find it before it is set off.

 

[Staffan]

Re: Re: Is an unsafe floor a trap?

There was actually an AD&D 2nd Edition adventure, "Axe of the Dwarvish Lords", which asserted the opposite, much to my disappointment.

Well, in 2e the "Find Traps" spell worked far differently from how it works in 3e - it automatically detected any trap in the area of effect. It also defined a "trap" as "any device or magical ward that meets three criteria: it can inflict a sudden or unexpected result, the spellcaster would view the result as undesirable or harmful, and the harmful or undesirable result was specifically intended as such by the creator."
In other words, if someone just neglects the upkeep on a place and the place becomes dangerous because of that, it's not a "trap". However, if someone deliberately weakens the supports/floors/whatever, it is.

As an analogy, a triggered avalanche would show up on 2e Find Traps. A natural one wouldn't.

 

[Saeviomagy]

So what you're saying is:
If my dungeon landlord doesn't come by to check the floors, they're not traps.

If he comes by, checks them and then thinks to himself "aha, that'll cause someone some injury", then it suddenly becomes a trap?

Riiiight.

I'd say it only takes the first criteria - it causes something unexpected to happen. That makes it a trap, and if it's difficult to spot, only a high-level rogue can spot it. Furthermore a disable device (should really be renamed - mechanical expertise sounds better...) will make it safe. I'd say that a DM is within his rights to say that a trap could be:
a) So easily bypassed that no roll is required, just an outline of the characters plan.
b) Sufficiently unusual that it requires materials that are not included in a set of thieves tools.
And that often these two will be combined. I can't see forcing a character who wants to disable a bell being forced to roll a disable device check, nor can I see a rogue commonly carrying planks to repair a floor.

 

[dcollins]

Re: Re: Re: Is an unsafe floor a trap?

Well, in 2e the "Find Traps" spell worked far differently from how it works in 3e...

We're not talking about the spell (in any edition of the rules), we're talking about the mundane rogue ability/skill.