Is anyone else ticked off at "core" splash books?

[myradale]

Specifically certain prestige classes that allow combine spellcasting classes.

I'm playing in a campaign that considers anything put out by WOTC to be "Core". The prestige class that's really gotten my goat is Cerebromancer from the expanded psionics handbook, but there's an equivilant "mystic Theurge" in the DMs guide that combines wizard and cleric the same way cerebromancer combines wizard and psion.

My main beef is that the character apparently gives up absolutely NOTHING for the benefits of the prestige class. Any wizard who's got the prerequisite 3 levels in cleric or psion or whatever would be INSANE not to take a level of a prestige class over a level in wizard.

The problem arises as I am taking over as DM and the current DM is transferring his NPC to character status. He's a psion 3, wizard 3, cerebromancer 4.
As I see it, this gives him all the powers of a 7th level wizard and a 7th level psion except for the following.

low caster level - for save DCs and the like...but this is easily rectified by the "practiced spellcaster" feat
low hit points (he's missing out on 4d4 HP when compared to a 14th level psion/wizard) but he was screwed as a melee character anyway.
He misses out on a feat from either the psion or the wizard
His familiar and psi-crystal are short 2 AC, 2 INT, and a few minor abilities.

Has anyone else played with one of these "gestalt" prestige classes? Are they trully as broken as I'm thinking, or am I missing something?

 

[Sithobi1]

They are actually pretty weak, IMO, because they lose at least 3 levels of spellcasting progression for each of their classes. That means they are at least 1, sometimes 2 spell levels behind the other people in their group. They also lose many spell slots/ power points in comparison to similar level single class casters.

 

[Silveras]

Specifically certain prestige classes that allow combine spellcasting classes.

I'm playing in a campaign that considers anything put out by WOTC to be "Core". The prestige class that's really gotten my goat is Cerebromancer from the expanded psionics handbook, but there's an equivilant "mystic Theurge" in the DMs guide that combines wizard and cleric the same way cerebromancer combines wizard and psion.

My main beef is that the character apparently gives up absolutely NOTHING for the benefits of the prestige class. Any wizard who's got the prerequisite 3 levels in cleric or psion or whatever would be INSANE not to take a level of a prestige class over a level in wizard.

The problem arises as I am taking over as DM and the current DM is transferring his NPC to character status. He's a psion 3, wizard 3, cerebromancer 4.
As I see it, this gives him all the powers of a 7th level wizard and a 7th level psion except for the following.

low caster level - for save DCs and the like...but this is easily rectified by the "practiced spellcaster" feat
low hit points (he's missing out on 4d4 HP when compared to a 14th level psion/wizard) but he was screwed as a melee character anyway.
He misses out on a feat from either the psion or the wizard
His familiar and psi-crystal are short 2 AC, 2 INT, and a few minor abilities.

Has anyone else played with one of these "gestalt" prestige classes? Are they trully as broken as I'm thinking, or am I missing something?

Well, it sounds like you are making a couple of rules errors.

1) Practiced Spellcaster increases caster level, true, but caster level has nothing to do with spell save DCs. "Level" in that formula is the spell's level, not the caster's.

2) Prestige Classes that grant "+1 level of spellcasting" or "+1 level of powers" DO NOT advance familiars or psicrystals (and each explicitly states so in its description).

So, that being said, the character will be 1 spell level behind a single-class Wizard of the same level (7th level Wiz gets 4th level spells, 10th level Wiz has 5th level spells). That means that the best spells/powers the combined character can use will be "slightly weaker" than the ones a single-classed caster would be expected to be using, and their saving throws will be "slightly easier". Consider, for example Globe of Invulnerability. A single-classed character gets it when s/he is likely to face only a few enemies capable of getting through it. Because the multi-classed character gets it "late", it is not as significant a defense by then. The same is true for other spells (and I presume for Psionic effects, though I have not done much with them).

Also, the Cerebremancer's Familiar has the powers of a 3rd level Wizard's (not a 7th, Cerebremancer levels do not count), and the Psicrystal has the powers of a 3rd level Psion's (again, Cerebremancer levels do not count).

Although s/he can indeed take Practiced Spellcaster to help with the effects of his spells, that is costly considering that he does not get the Wizard's or Psion's bonus feats.

Even though s/he has more spells and powers to choose from than a single-classed Psion or Wizard, s/he still only gets to use 1 at a time.

I would recommend you thoroughly read the classes before trying to DM with them in use.

 

[axp_dave]

I don't think the two classes are too powerful either as how often in a game do your casters or manifesters run our of powers or spells in a night of gaming? BEing able to cast a ton of spells or powers adds a lot of verasility, but in the average game the player won't be able to use all of them. The PRC's that you mention sound fun, but w/o the feats and dedicated levels to a single class the character will never be a great wizard or psion so it wouldn't be my choice if the character is the only wizard in a party, but it would make a great 5th or 6th character in a party with a dedicated wizard, cleric, and two fighters.

 

[Diirk]

Multiple stat depency hurts mystic theurges alot, too. Not so much for cerebremancers tho... wizard/psion or wilder/sorceror complement each other nicely.

 

[Sithobi1]

You could always go favored soul/sorcerer to lessen the MAD

 

[Kae'Yoss]

You are missing that they lag one and a half spell levels behind. That's a big drawback.

When the Wizard 3/Psion 3/Cerebremencer 4 has 4th level spells and powers, a wizard 10 has 5th level power. Even worse. Wiz 3/Psi3/Cer 5 still only has 4th level spells, while the wizard 11 gets 6th-level powers. This means that your best attack spell is fireball/lightning bolt or ice storm (or the 4th-level energy whatever psions get on that level) while the straight wizard can choose between chain lightning and disintegrate.

 

[Jdvn1]

You are missing that they lag one and a half spell levels behind. That's a big drawback.

Well, that's actually been mentioned. It wasn't missed. That, and the fact that you only cast one spell at a time, makes the PrC seem balanced to me.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

And despite the view of your group the splat books aren't 'core' - WotC does not even try to claim so. If as a DM you don't like 'em, then snuff 'em.

The Auld Grump

 

[UltimaGabe]

The prestige class that makes no sense to me whatsoever is the True Necromancer from Libris Mortis. In 3e, the prestige class was underpowered- there was really no benefit that made the class worth taking. However, in 3.5, they went a little overboard.

All of the downsides of the Mystic Theurge (the class is only ten levels, bad BAB, bad HD, bad saves, bad skills) were turned to upsides (if I'm not mistaken, it's got better saves, BAB, and/or HD than the Mystic Theurge- and the class is thirteen levels, netting a total eleven levels where both classes get progression, which is better than the Mystic Theurge's ten levels). Not only is the class mathematically superior to the Mystic Theurge, but what's this? Spell-like abilities? IN ADDITION TO SPELLS? They took the Mystic Theurge, switched out some of the balancing factors for more powerful equivalents, and tacked on a bunch of free Spell-Like Abilities. Wtf?