Is anyone else ticked off at "core" splash books?

[reanjr]

Specifically certain prestige classes that allow combine spellcasting classes.

I'm playing in a campaign that considers anything put out by WOTC to be "Core". The prestige class that's really gotten my goat is Cerebromancer from the expanded psionics handbook, but there's an equivilant "mystic Theurge" in the DMs guide that combines wizard and cleric the same way cerebromancer combines wizard and psion.

My main beef is that the character apparently gives up absolutely NOTHING for the benefits of the prestige class. Any wizard who's got the prerequisite 3 levels in cleric or psion or whatever would be INSANE not to take a level of a prestige class over a level in wizard.

The problem arises as I am taking over as DM and the current DM is transferring his NPC to character status. He's a psion 3, wizard 3, cerebromancer 4.
As I see it, this gives him all the powers of a 7th level wizard and a 7th level psion except for the following.

low caster level - for save DCs and the like...but this is easily rectified by the "practiced spellcaster" feat
low hit points (he's missing out on 4d4 HP when compared to a 14th level psion/wizard) but he was screwed as a melee character anyway.
He misses out on a feat from either the psion or the wizard
His familiar and psi-crystal are short 2 AC, 2 INT, and a few minor abilities.

Has anyone else played with one of these "gestalt" prestige classes? Are they trully as broken as I'm thinking, or am I missing something?

The question should be, are the powers of a 7th level wizard and 7th level psion's powers too much for a 10th level character?

I personally don't like the classes, either. I much prefer the practiced spellcaster feat being used to balance things.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The question should be, are the powers of a 7th level wizard and 7th level psion's powers too much for a 10th level character?

Two 7th-level characters are EL 9. So they're actually short of the mark (even with their two actions)

 

[Magesmiley]

Having not too long ago played a mystic theurge which my DM allowed me to convert to a true necromancer when Libris Mortis came out (I had long ago made the old true necromancer from tome and blood my ultimate objective, with a detour through mystic theurge to meet the pre-reqs a bit earlier), I think I can comment on some of the balancing factors. I did take the practiced spellcaster feat also.

Getting the prerequisites...
The hardest part in many ways was progressing through levels 4-6. The progression through those levels, when everyone else's abilities were improving at a pretty good pace while my own were kind of limping along was somewhat painful. Essentially being 3rd level in both classes (3 levels below everyone else's abilities) makes you not too useful in many situations when you are facing CR6 encounters.

Mystic Theurge:
The level and a half lag in spellcasting ability kind of hurt on the offensive spellpower. I wasn't able to regularly throw the flashy, offensive spells with any significant ability compared to the straight wizard we had in our party. As a result, I tended to concentrate more on the supportive spells, such as buffs. With the addition of practiced spellcaster (wizard), my offensive power improved considerably, giving me the ability to throw the occasional fully effective fireball (as opposed to one 3d6 lower in damage than our wizard). However, for the most part I concentrated on supportive spells, as they were more helpful against the foes we faced.

The second problem, from the clerical standpoint, is that your turning and domain abilities do not improve with mystic theurge levels. In my case, as I was a LN cleric of Wee Jas, the loss of 3 levels for rebuking and the death touch ability of the death domain not improving was somewhat painful.

True Necromancer:
The true necromancer is somewhat more powerful than the mystic theurge. It has some major drawbacks though, in particular the prerequisites for entering the class - the death domain requirement narrows group of characters who can enter the class considerably. It also doesn't grant spells to both classes on every level. Some levels you only improve in divine or arcane, and not both. The improvement of rebuking every level is a major improvement over the theurge however. The class is better overall than the theurge I believe, provided you can qualify for it.

 

[Abstraction]

...In my case, as I was a LN cleric of Wee Jas, the loss of 3 levels for rebuking and the death touch ability of the death domain not improving was somewhat painful.

Actually, with Mystic Theurge, your turning and domain abilities for cleric are stuck at 3rd level.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

That's not what he said... they are not core, but the are seen as 'core' in his group (all material used with no questions asked, so to say). That's how I understood that, at least.

Bye
Thanee

(Emphasis mine.)

Exactly, and that is what I am saying is a bad idea - You should always question. WotC has come out with some unbalanced stinkers in the past, and will again. They also have some stuff that is really, really good, and will again. My answer is to treat them like any other company, pick and choose, even when things are balanced (and they usually are) not all things fit all games.

As to Mystic Theurge, the bulk of his complaints did not concern the MT, which is not an unbalanced class in my eyes, just... boring.

The Auld Grump

 

[KarinsDad]

Has anyone else played with one of these "gestalt" prestige classes? Are they trully as broken as I'm thinking, or am I missing something?

As DM, I played a Druid/Sorcerer MT.

The down side was that she was generally wimpier than any single PC.

The up side was that she was generally more versatile than any single PC.

From a roleplaying perspective, she was very well liked by the players, especially after she acquired Mass Darkvision.

These types of prestige classes are generally good party support roles, but lousy combat damage dealing roles.

The loss of the advancement of their special abililties (druid shapechanging, cleric turning ability, bonus wizard feats, bonus psion feats, bonus psychic warrior feats, wilder special abilities, familiar abilities, psicrystal abilities) also balances out the gain of versatility.

The only classes that loses little are the Sorcerer (and he still loses familiar abilities) and the Cleric (if turning is not that critical in your campaign).