Is anyone out there terrified of demons/devils IRL?

[Dinkeldog]

Please remember the ground rules.

First, try to leave religion out, especially statements critical of others' beliefs. Simple factual statement should be enough.

Second, if you're going to recommend a thread be closed because you feel it's too religious--specifically attacking your beliefs--and you're upset that the mods don't agree with you at the time, don't follow up with a religious posting that insults other people.

Third, people can believe what they want. Try not to tell people what they believe in, because honestly you can't know and all you do is create bad blood.

 

[Green Knight]

"Well I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Keyser Soze".

 

[wolfen]

I leave in-depth debate of man's struggle with epistemological compromise up to Elder Basilisk an Gothmog. They're cognitively well-endowed and quite articulate. I've engaged in the debate far too many times for my liking. "He convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

I will say that any Intro to Research textbook will tell you that the entirety of man's experiences cannot be explored or explained through scientific methodology.

The problem is that many enthusiasts will misconstrue this fundamental principle of science -- that its nose doesn't belong in certain arenas of human experience -- as a demand to reject all things unscientific. It's as though the use of this basic tool has somehow evolved them. They are no longer the bundle of contradictions that is "human," but are now pure Scientist. It can even take a semi-spiritual tone..."Dear Diary, without any scientifically verifiable evidence whatsoever, I allowed myself to harbor an unsupportable suspicion. I must remember this in my annual pilgrimmage of repentance, and immediately atone with a donation to the Amazing Randi." Scientific and Religious texts are equally abused by the lazy-thinking masses.

But under scrutiny, you will find that every one of them will make allowances for their own unsupportable personal biases. Why? Because that's part of being human. Some people are more complicated than they are willing to deal with. Science is a great simplifier, the new pacifier of the ego's darkest fears.

Why fear the "Rise of the Machines" when many scientists so easily dismiss the value of human experience? "I can't verify it, so it isn't true" sounds to me like "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated."



wolfen

 

[fusangite]

I'm with Djeta and Billy here. Actually being scared of demons and devils in the real world is not an epistemological and theological issue -- it's a psychiatric issue. Acting like this kind of fear is normal does no one any good -- there's nothing normal or justifiable about it. It's insane -- anyone suffering from it needs medical attention not our "support."

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Ditto that. Besides, like someone in another post said, flesh and blood humans walking around out there are often a lot more scary then any folk tale demons your mind can create.

I play D&D because these things are amusing to me. I like to dream that somewhere there is a place where monsters and unicorns and elves all live ; but until someone shows me that place , I will take it as fiction. Interesting and entertaining fiction.

With all respect to you and T-Bill, I'm not inclined to simply dismiss things that have been believed for several thousand years of recorded human history by millions of people. I'm inclined to think that where there's smoke, there's fire. Now, that doesn't mean I ever expect to see a ghost or a demon or what-not; matter of fact, I'm 90% sure I never will. I also think that many strange occurrences can be explained with just a bit of investigation, which would uncover a logical reason for something. But people are experiencing something. Sure, many may be cranks, but it's just too easy to handwave and say "oh, they're all weak-minded." In my opinion, and again, with all respect, that's just as lazy as people who assume the strange light they see in the sky is a UFO, or that the strange thumping noise in the attic is a ghost. "Lazy" in the sense that it's easy for either side to jump to a conclusion based on tenuous evidence, without any real investigation.

My point is that we are not anywhere near the apex of human understanding of the universe. There are still things out there to be discovered, things we cannot explain now. If you could time travel, how much success would you have if you tried to explain radio waves to even the most enlightened mind of, say, the 9th century? How could you empirically prove their existence, without any modern equipment? Radio waves did not come into existence because we invented the means to use them. They were there all along. So, too, are there things in the universe that have yet to be discovered, that cannot be quantified by us with current equipment. The Hubble telescope presents us with evidence for things we never imagined before, or which were thought impossible. I mean, heck, it wasn't all that long ago that it was debated whether planets were common (or even in existence!) beyond our solar system; now new ones are discovered almost weekly. Each day we are presented with new discoveries in virtually all the scientific fields.

So, to the original topic - do I believe in demons? I don't know. I've never seen one. I don't expect to ever see one. However, that doesn't mean they aren't there. Sure, a lot of reports - most reports, if I may be so bold - of demons are probably the result of imaginations run wild, whether mistakenly or purposely. But, like a lot of things, there may be a kernel of truth in there somewhere, an unexpected explanation that would surprise us all. That's what's cool about the world - the unknown.

Just my opinion.

 

[fusangite]

ColonelHardisson says

With all respect to you and T-Bill, I'm not inclined to simply dismiss things that have been believed for several thousand years of recorded human history by millions of people. I'm inclined to think that where there's smoke, there's fire.

Yes. But let's look at what educated thinkers in these pre-modern societies thought about demons and devils. While the gullible masses are off believing in UFOs piloted by shape-shifting space-lizards, astronomers are engaging in perfectly sane speculation about the heavens that generally don't involve such things.

The same is true of demonology: read Saint Augustine if you want to get a sense of how smart, educated people in antiquity integrated demons or Eriugena's Periphyseon to see how educated medievals thought about such things. They weren't any more likely to believe in little red/green/black men than modern astrophysicists are.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Yes. But let's look at what educated thinkers in these pre-modern societies thought about demons and devils. While the gullible masses are off believing in UFOs piloted by shape-shifting space-lizards, astronomers are engaging in perfectly sane speculation about the heavens that generally don't involve such things.

But, and this is a big but , extraterrestrial life is being discussed more and more seriously. It's just not being discussed the way anyone thought it would be even just a few decades ago. Many great minds casually dismissed even the possibility of such life not that long ago. Now, with increasing serious discussion of parallel universes (different "planes" in D&D parlance), I'm becoming less and less sure about a lot of things I was completely positive about before...

The same is true of demonology: read Saint Augustine if you want to get a sense of how smart, educated people in antiquity integrated demons or Eriugena's Periphyseon to see how educated medievals thought about such things. They weren't any more likely to believe in little red/green/black men than modern astrophysicists are.

Again with the but, what you seem to imply is that there could well be a kernel of truth to tales of demons. What that kernel is, is likely not what anyone expects.

I do want to stress, though, that mental illness (or an overactive imagination) could well be the cause of a lot of these types of things. I just hesitate to say it's the reason behind all or even most of these stories.

 

[Mark Chance]

I'm with Djeta and Billy here. Actually being scared of demons and devils in the real world is not an epistemological and theological issue -- it's a psychiatric issue. Acting like this kind of fear is normal does no one any good -- there's nothing normal or justifiable about it. It's insane -- anyone suffering from it needs medical attention not our "support."

So much for moderator admonitions.

Every major world religion, from Christianity to Zoroastrianism, includes belief in demons as part of its canon. But, as usual, those who deride millenia-old religious belief get a free-run around here.

If it weren't for double-standards, there'd be no standards at all, I suppose.

 

[fusangite]

Mark Chance says,

So much for moderator admonitions.

Every major world religion, from Christianity to Zoroastrianism, includes belief in demons as part of its canon. But, as usual, those who deride millenia-old religious belief get a free-run around here.

If it weren't for double-standards, there'd be no standards at all, I suppose.

Did you read the rest of my post? I think you've missed a thing or two: I cited two major Christian theologians, including the most important one ever.

Except for fundamentalists and Pentecostals, modern Christians do not believe that demons play an active role in their lives. You're the one insulting Christianity by suggesting that it is normal for modern Christians to fear demons in real life.

If a parishioner came to any remotely responsible priest or minister of a mainstream denomination and stated that he was personally afraid of demons hurting him, that priest/minister would refer the parishioner to psychiatric care.

The question was not whether it is technically possible for demons to exist in some way but whether it is reasonable for a modern person to be afraid of demons.

However, I would go further and suggest that most Christians today do not believe demons exist -- just as Christians, in the past, believed in the real presence in transubstantiation (and now less than half do) or that every person who died unbaptized went directly to hell for all eternity, Christians in another age believed in demons. But belief in demons is not a canonical feature of Christianity, contrary to your statement -- mere presence in the bible is insufficient to make something canonical, unless you're a fundamentalist.

 

[Green Knight]

Um, if the Bible isn't "canon", then what is? Though I'm fairly certain fear of demons isn't canonical. But I'm hardly an expert on that.