Is casting a spell considered a threatening action?

[Greenfield]

Actually, no.

When it comes to spells and Invisibility, it says that if you cast any area spell whose area includes a foe, your invisibility is blown.

So Light, Darkness, an area-effect indiscriminate healing spell, silence, they all count. Doesn't have to be harmful to the enemy, or even helpful to you. It just has to include the adversary in the area.

And "threatening" someone doesn't blow Invisibility. I can point my bow at the guy all day long, no problem. Until I release that arrow, my spell stays good.

 

[Mirror]

So what I'm getting is that any spell, regardless of how beneficial, is a threatening act. Speaking in a different language is a threatening act.

 

[Talonblaze]

So what I'm getting is that any spell, regardless of how beneficial, is a threatening act. Speaking in a different language is a threatening act.

Don't see how speaking in a different language is a threatening act unless it was in an intimidating fashion or such.

Spellcasting generally involves more than just speech. It has movement and effects that go along with it to be easily discernible. It's feared because of the general implications magic has on the world and the people.

 

[prosfilaes]

So what I'm getting is that any spell, regardless of how beneficial, is a threatening act. Speaking in a different language is a threatening act.

As far as I can recall, there's nothing RAW that says the verbal components of a spell are indistinguishable from normal speech. Just the process of verbally calling upon that power could sound alien, or the language include phonemes no normal language includes.

Even otherwise, spell casting, unless deliberately disguised, wouldn't look like normal conversation; the spellcaster would be concentrating on casting a spell, not talking to someone.

 

[Greenfield]

So what I'm getting is that any spell, regardless of how beneficial, is a threatening act. Speaking in a different language is a threatening act.

Hey, I don't make the rules, I just quote them (and often laugh hysterically).

By the RAW, any spell casting at all that's directed towards the person breaks the spell. Speaking in an unknown tongue wouldn't qualify, unless you happen to be casting a spell at the target in that language. Even casting a spell that they don't know you're casting does it.

That's RAW, not RAI, of course. RAI would probably be expressed as "anything that makes the victim feel threatened".

 

[Vegepygmy]

So what I'm getting is that any spell, regardless of how beneficial, is a threatening act.

By the RAW, any spell casting at all that's directed towards the person breaks the spell.

I do not agree with Greenfield's interpretation of the RAW. I'm not aware of any place where the RAW says what Greenfield claims.

Spells that allow a saving throw may cause the target to feel a "hostile force or a tingle" (PHB page 177), but mark of justice doesn't allow a save, so that doesn't apply. The rules for what constitutes an "attack" that breaks invisibility are expressly limited to the invisibility spell alone, so they don't apply. Anyone want to quote another rule that does apply?

In the absence of such a rule, I'd say common sense governs. A creature that can't identify the spell as it is being cast (because it has no ranks in Spellcraft, for example) can't possibly know if the spell is harmful or beneficial until after it's been subjected to it. So if you tell a charmed victim that you're going to cast a beneficial spell on it, but you're really casting mark of justice, it's going to believe you (because of the charm) and let you do it.

The moment you actually mark it, I'd say the creature would recognize that you tricked it and put a harmful spell on it, and that would break the charm. But it would already be marked.

 

[kitcik]

Anyone want to quote another rule that does apply?

See post #4 above. Seems like a pretty good RAW analogy.


Originally Posted by SRD
A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a -4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature’s ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action.

 

[Greenfield]

Well, Charming Gazeis described as "as Charm Person, for Spirit Naga. Lrt's look at Charm Person...

Charm Person
Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One humanoid creature
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.

Okay, so any act that threatens breaks the spell.

We could get mean and go by the "Threatened Squares" definition, I suppose, but that would be a truly class A hole move.

Under the general heading of Charm and Compulsion...

CHARM AND COMPULSION
Many abilities and spells can cloud the minds of characters and monsters, leaving them unable to tell friend from foe—or worse yet, deceiving them into thinking that their former friends are now their worst enemies. Two general types of enchantments affect characters and creatures: charms and compulsions.
Charming another creature gives the charming character the ability to befriend and suggest courses of actions to his minion, but the servitude is not absolute or mindless. Charms of this type include the various charm spells. Essentially, a charmed character retains free will but makes choices according to a skewed view of the world.
• A charmed creature doesn’t gain any magical ability to understand his new friend’s language.
• A charmed character retains his original alignment and allegiances, generally with the exception that he now regards the charming creature as a dear friend and will give great weight to his suggestions and directions.
• A charmed character fights his former allies only if they threaten his new friend, and even then he uses the least lethal means at his disposal as long as these tactics show any possibility of success (just as he would in a fight between two actual friends).
• A charmed character is entitled to an opposed Charisma check against his master in order to resist instructions or commands that would make him do something he wouldn’t normally do even for a close friend. If he succeeds, he decides not to go along with that order but remains charmed.
• A charmed character never obeys a command that is obviously suicidal or grievously harmful to her.
• If the charming creature commands his minion to do something that the influenced character would be violently opposed to, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to break free of the influence altogether.
• A charmed character who is openly attacked by the creature who charmed him or by that creature’s apparent allies is automatically freed of the spell or effect.
Compulsion is a different matter altogether. A compulsion overrides the subject’s free will in some way or simply changes the way the subject’s mind works. A charm makes the subject a friend of the caster; a compulsion makes the subject obey the caster.
Regardless of whether a character is charmed or compelled, he won’t volunteer information or tactics that his master doesn’t ask for.

So under this topic "threatening" someone isn't a a problem, except that it gives them a bonus v the initial Save. No help here...

So the only actual definition of "Threaten" in the SRD is for threatening a square.

In an early post someone quoted a different rule for a different condition, which is what lead us on the tangent about casting a spell.

Lacking a hard and fast definition, what's left is common sense. What would make the person feel threatened?

So I'd base it on a Diplomacy check. Being in a Charmed state means that he starts at the "friendly" state. You probably need to take him to Helpful.

Or, you need to flat out lie to him about what the spell is or what it will do to/for him. Make it sound truly beneficial. Hell, let him know that it's available, for a small price.

Go read Tom Sawyer, if you need an example.

 

[kitcik]

In an early post someone quoted a different rule for a different condition, which is what lead us on the tangent about casting a spell.

Although it is related to a different condition, it does pretty basically state that casting a spell is an "obvious threat" under RAW.

 

[Mirror]

Well, Charming Gazeis described as "as Charm Person, for Spirit Naga. Lrt's look at Charm Person...

Okay, so any act that threatens breaks the spell.

We could get mean and go by the "Threatened Squares" definition, I suppose, but that would be a truly class A hole move.

Under the general heading of Charm and Compulsion...

So under this topic "threatening" someone isn't a a problem, except that it gives them a bonus v the initial Save. No help here...

So the only actual definition of "Threaten" in the SRD is for threatening a square.

In an early post someone quoted a different rule for a different condition, which is what lead us on the tangent about casting a spell.

Lacking a hard and fast definition, what's left is common sense. What would make the person feel threatened?

So I'd base it on a Diplomacy check. Being in a Charmed state means that he starts at the "friendly" state. You probably need to take him to Helpful.

Or, you need to flat out lie to him about what the spell is or what it will do to/for him. Make it sound truly beneficial. Hell, let him know that it's available, for a small price.

Go read Tom Sawyer, if you need an example.

I agree with this. Mainly cause the rules of Fascinate doesn't properly apply here. The creature isn't taken any penalties, or anything, it is completely capable of acting on its own. The way fascination works is like a trance, so obviously just about anything under the sun can break it. The Mark does 0 damage, ever. On top of that, if I'm reading kitcik right, the Mark could be cast with silent/still metamagic applied and would STILL break the charm, which makes zero sense.