D&D General Is character class an in-world concept in your campaigns?

[Maxperson]

Those are just examples. That’s not how every NPC has to be. You are not breaking a rule by not using the stats in the monster manual or PHB or dmg for an npc.

Nor is it breaking a rule, or even a stretch, to think that the NPCs who make it to super high level represent the best of the best, rolling great stats, finding stat boosting books, getting boons, and more. Just because the final numbers don't add up to a PC array, doesn't mean that they started higher. They just ended higher, like many PCs. Or maybe they just rolled well.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

If your willing to actually go watch the videos I can dig you up a few that shows both prayer that isn’t a request and a song directly to god that includes a request.

Prayer is not and never has been just - god give me. Sometimes prayer is about thanksgiving, sometimes about praise and sometimes about venting.

God thank you
God you are great
God I don’t know what to do

Honestly, I think your conception of prayer is cartoonish.

I think you got me confused with someone else. I am literally saying what you just said.

They don't have to spell out common sense. I mean, you are now arguing that, "Thank you <insert god here> for this food." can trigger a flame strike.

They do in order for it to be part of the rules.

Reciting psalms can, by RAW, be how a cleric uses their spells.

And mechanically, the cleric requests their magic during a long rest and prepare their spells, not when they cast a spell.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Even then, they MUST use music and clerics not only don't have to use music, but very, very, VERY few of them ever will.

False. They can use music. They explicitly can also use oration.

“Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration.”

 

[FrogReaver]

It's the height of presumptuousness to thank your god for something the god hasn't done yet. That's not a prayer, it's an expectation that your god will obey you. Not only that, but it sounds like you are swearing in a prayer to your god, while thanking him for protecting you from your enemies.



Maybe in 4e. I'm not certain about that edition. In every other edition your god grants you the power and it involves devotion and prayer, as well as doing the will of your god(or ideal in 3e), and 5e is no exception to that.

You have quite a hostility toward believing your god will do the things he promised. It’s not presumptuous or wrong to thank god for doing something he promised to do before he has done it - so long as you believe he really will

As an example - a popular religious verse from Christianity

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

 

[Maxperson]

I think you got me confused with someone else. I am literally saying what you just said.

They do in order for it to be part of the rules.

Reciting psalms can, by RAW, be how a cleric uses their spells.

And mechanically, the cleric requests their magic during a long rest and prepare their spells, not when they cast a spell.

Your argument is irrelevant, though. A flamestrike is a cleric spell. Unless the bard is 10th level or higher and has used one of his precious few magical secrets on it, it doesn't matter who sings what. Even then, after seeing a few more spells it's going be apparent who's the bard and who's the cleric.

 

[FrogReaver]

False. They can use music. They explicitly can also use oration.

“Your magic comes from the heart and soul you pour into the performance of your music or oration.”

And if your heart and soul are your gods then it seems to me that your music or oratory performance has a source of your god no?

 

[FrogReaver]

Your argument is irrelevant, though. A flamestrike is a cleric spell. Unless the bard is 10th level or higher and has used one of his precious few magical secrets on it, it doesn't matter who sings what. Even then, after seeing a few more spells it's going be apparent who's the bard and who's the cleric.

Not at all. You are presupposing that only in fiction clerics can cast flame strike and in fiction bards cannot and that there are enough of both that anyone can draw that conclusion. But that’s not the case. A pc cleric doesn’t necessarily represent a typical in fiction cleric and even if it does it doesn’t necessarily represent every in fiction cleric.

 

[Maxperson]

And if your heart and soul are your gods then it seems to me that your music or oratory performance has a source of your god no?

Not in mechanical terms, no. Only the cleric has his spells granted by his god as the divine source of his power. The bard may FEEL that the god is the source, but arcane is the real source.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not in mechanical terms, no. Only the cleric has his spells granted by his god as the divine source of his power. The bard may FEEL that the god is the source, but arcane is the real source.

Are the gods so inept that they cannot impart arcane casting to their believers?

 

[Maxperson]

Not at all. You are presupposing that only in fiction clerics can cast flame strike and in fiction bards cannot and that there are enough of both that anyone can draw that conclusion. But that’s not the case. A pc cleric doesn’t necessarily represent a typical in fiction cleric and even if it does it doesn’t necessarily represent every in fiction cleric.

Yes, you can alter the game fiction to suit your argument. That's a homebrew campaign, though. As the written default, clerics are X in D&D, and bards are Y.