D&D General Is character class an in-world concept in your campaigns?

[Maxperson]

It’s Inept when a god can’t do it but a lesser being like a powerful but non-god celestial, fey or fiend can grant arcane powers...

No it's not inept. Those non-gods cannot grant spells to the same degree that gods can. They cannot grant the warlocks as much spellcasting power as a god can a cleric. Again, gods in D&D are not all powerful. In fact, they have been highly limited in what they can do since 1e. Just be grateful that the lesser and demigods can grant clerics max level spells these days.

Different beings can do different things.

 

[FrogReaver]

No it's not inept. Those non-gods cannot grant spells to the same degree that gods can. They cannot grant the warlocks as much spellcasting power as a god can a cleric. Again, gods in D&D are not all powerful. In fact, they have been highly limited in what they can do since 1e. Just be grateful that the lesser and demigods can grant clerics max level spells these days.

Different beings can do different things.

Don’t try to change the argument now. Moving goalposts are never fun.

The point is question is about whether a being can grant another arcane power. They absolutely can in 5e. Since we know it’s possible, Is there any rule preventing a god from doing the same?

Why does this matter? Because your claim is bards cannot be in fiction clerics because their power source is arcane (though I’m not sure that’s an actual fictional difference) but assuming it is - it also needs to be established that gods don’t grant arcane power. I’m not seeing any way you can support that being impossibile

 

[Maxperson]

Don’t try to change the argument now. Moving goalposts are never fun.

I'm not. Gods have always been highly limited. Period. This is a fact. They cannot do things that other beings can do, and can do other things that those beings cannot do.

The point is question is about whether a being can grant another arcane power. They absolutely can in 5e.

Bzzzt! Nyet! You do not get to call me out incorrectly for moving the goalposts, and them hurl them a mile away yourself. You've been arguing that GODS can grant arcane ability. Not "beings."

Since we know it’s possible, Is there any rule preventing a god from doing the same?

Yes. The warlock class, which you are using as your evidence, explicitly says "not gods."

 

[Salthorae]

Would an acolyte bard who was raised in a temple his whole life and studied clerical casting there, felt the spark of power inside them’s cure wounds spell look different than a clerics of the same god and they both sung their prayer?

What if that god was the god of bards like Milil?

If the answer is “yes” for your game world because arcane/divine magic work or are structured differently, then those knowledgeable in the arcane/divine structure differences would be able to tell them apart immediately. Would a commoner though? A mercenary fighter with no skill in either arcana or religion?

If the answer is “no” then there is literally no way to tell unless you assume NPC meta game knowledge of spell lists

 

[Maxperson]

Would an acolyte bard who was raised in a temple his whole life and studied clerical casting there, felt the spark of power inside them’s cure wounds spell look different than a clerics of the same god and they both sung their prayer?

What if that god was the god of bards like Milil?

If the answer is “yes” for your game world because arcane/divine magic work or are structured differently, then those knowledgeable in the arcane/divine structure differences would be able to tell them apart immediately. Would a commoner though? A mercenary fighter with no skill in either arcana or religion?

If the answer is “no” then there is literally no way to tell unless you assume NPC meta game knowledge of spell lists

There might be no way to tell from the cure wounds alone, and again, I'm not arguing that it's possible, if somewhat rare to be able to disguise yourself a different class, but as soon as you used bard abilities and spells, those with the knowledge would be able to figure out what you were.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm not. Gods have always been highly limited. Period. This is a fact. They cannot do things that other beings can do, and can do other things that those beings cannot do.



Bzzzt! Nyet! You do not get to call me out incorrectly for moving the goalposts, and them hurl them a mile away yourself. You've been arguing that GODS can grant arcane ability. Not "beings."


Yes. The warlock class, which you are using as your evidence, explicitly says "not gods."

My only point is that arcane power is granted from other beings. Since no rule actually prevents a god from granting arcane power then it’s possible a god can grant arcane power.

Why is that hard to admit? Why haven’t you presented a rule that says gods can’t grant arcane power?

 

[FrogReaver]

There might be no way to tell from the cure wounds alone, and again, I'm not arguing that it's possible, if somewhat rare to be able to disguise yourself a different class, but as soon as you used bard abilities and spells, those with the knowledge would be able to figure out what you were.

That’s again assuming something about the setting which isn’t necessarily true.

 

[Salthorae]

There might be no way to tell from the cure wounds alone, and again, I'm not arguing that it's possible, if somewhat rare to be able to disguise yourself a different class, but as soon as you used bard abilities and spells, those with the knowledge would be able to figure out what you were.

You repeatedly say “those with the knowledge”.

What % of the population in your game worlds does that comprise?

For my game world, it is very very small, because only exceptional people have PC classes (PC’s included obviously!). Something like 90% of people in my worlds would say “magic!” For a spell regardless of caster type. They might make assumptions if the person is wearing a pointy hat or is an elf or stood with their holy symbol brandished that they knew what the source was but they wouldn’t actually know.

Also what bard ability screams “bard”? And not cleric who can play a restful song while we take a rest or some such?

NPCs don’t go “oh, that there was a song of rest! He must be a bard actually not the cleric of Milil I thought him to be.”

I guess that gets back to “what are hit points”? A song of rest isn’t actually healing your wounds. But it does give you hit points. Makes you feel better.

I don’t know. Whatever works for your fiction in your game world I guess.

 

[FrogReaver]

You repeatedly say “those with the knowledge”.

What % of the population in your game worlds does that comprise?

For my game world, it is very very small, because only exceptional people have PC classes (PC’s included obviously!). Something like 90% of people in my worlds would say “magic!” For a spell regardless of caster type. They might make assumptions if the person is wearing a pointy hat or is an elf or stood with their holy symbol brandished that they knew what the source was but they wouldn’t actually know.

Also what bard ability screams “bard”? And not cleric who can play a restful song while we take a rest or some such?

NPCs don’t go “oh, that there was a song of rest! He must be a bard actually not the cleric of Milil I thought him to be.”

I guess that gets back to “what are hit points”? A song of rest isn’t actually healing your wounds. But it does give you hit points. Makes you feel better.

I don’t know. Whatever works for your fiction in your game world I guess.

Yep it’s kind of like he’s assumed a particular setting and is arguing that because bards and clerics are different and distinguishable in that setting that they must be different and distinguishable in all settings.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Seems you can’t take what you try to dish out

This conversation started with you but ok