D&D 5E Is Charm Monster too good?

[DND_Reborn]

In our session today one of the spellcasters tossed out a Charm Monster on one of two cyclops in the first round of our encounter. The DC was 15, but with the -2 WIS modifier it needed a 17 or higher. Even with advantage, is is not surprising it failed its save (only a 36% chance to make the save).

Now, the DM was looking over the spell and a bit flummoxed.

The range is short, only 30 feet. (poor)
Only V,S components. (good)
1 hour duration. (great)
Target any creature. (great)
Target likely gets advantage on saves. (really poor)

Other features:
No concentration. (incredible)
No additional saves. (incredible)

After the failed save the player asked the cyclops to defend them against the other. The DM called for a Charisma (Persuasion) check. The player rolled a 22, beating the DC 20, so the charmed cyclops attacked its comrade.

After the encounter, the DM opened the discussion about the spell. It is too powerful?

The combination of such a long duration without concentration, targeting anything not immune to charm, and no further saves, seems a bit too strong even when you consider the advantage on the save. When you consider also how few creatures have WIS save or even a high WIS, it seems really strong for a 4th level spell.

Granted the player also needed a 13 or higher to get the cyclops to risk its life in a direct fight.

Does it all balance out? Anyone seen Charm Monster in use enough to offer an informed opinion?

 

[Xenonnonex]

The charmed condition is not as powerful as previously. You could not give it orders and have the charmed creature obey them to the letter. As an example.

It just does not attack you.
And when the spell ends the creature knows who attempted to charm it.

 

[5ekyu]

In our session today one of the spellcasters tossed out a Charm Monster on one of two cyclops in the first round of our encounter. The DC was 15, but with the -2 WIS modifier it needed a 17 or higher. Even with advantage, is is not surprising it failed its save (only a 36% chance to make the save).

Now, the DM was looking over the spell and a bit flummoxed.

The range is short, only 30 feet. (poor)
Only V,S components. (good)
1 hour duration. (great)
Target any creature. (great)
Target likely gets advantage on saves. (really poor)

Other features:
No concentration. (incredible)
No additional saves. (incredible)

After the failed save the player asked the cyclops to defend them against the other. The DM called for a Charisma (Persuasion) check. The player rolled a 22, beating the DC 20, so the charmed cyclops attacked its comrade.

After the encounter, the DM opened the discussion about the spell. It is too powerful?

The combination of such a long duration without concentration, targeting anything not immune to charm, and no further saves, seems a bit too strong even when you consider the advantage on the save. When you consider also how few creatures have WIS save or even a high WIS, it seems really strong for a 4th level spell.

Granted the player also needed a 13 or higher to get the cyclops to risk its life in a direct fight.

Does it all balance out? Anyone seen Charm Monster in use enough to offer an informed opinion?

It depends on the situation and how you count persuasion.

Charmed does not give you command, neither does Persuasion.

The DC 20 (friendly, great risk, DMG) is for convincing someone, not for commanding someone within a fight with a single order barked in six-second. Read the rest of the DMG social, where you hot the 20, it's not giving persuasion an instant command order capability.

Not saying it is inappropriate for an ettin to be agreeable with betraying the other guy, but while he mst trust the caster he doesn't trust everyone else one bit.

So, yo me, if the FM plays it as instant order and doesnt bring NPC traits into it, then yeah it can be potentially over the top.

Personally, I dont think it is. Not for a 4th level spell hitting a brother's weakness.

 

[Salthorae]

I agree with @Xenonnonex it's only as powerful as the DM gives you leeway and a monsters inclinations.

In this case... I could see a Cyclops clobbering another cyclops at the behest of a friend!

 

[ccs]

My informed opinion is that there's nothing wrong with it in the games I DM/play in. As written it's added greatly to the fun over the years.

At your table? I can't speak to that.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Hmm... I suppose when you combine the requirement to fail the save (64%) and make the roll to persuade (even if just as a single request), which in this case was 40%, the total chance of this outcome was only about 1 in 4. Since this represented the highest level slot the caster can use, I guess it really ins't too crazy.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[Campbell]

Charm Person's greatest advantage is that it allows you to shift NPC attitude in the midst of a fight. You still need to convince it to do what you want it to do. I would probably rule that attempting to do would take either your bonus action or action for the round depending on how involved your request is. I do not see it as phenomenally powerful. The stars pretty much need to align to turn a creature against its allies.

 

[Xenonnonex]

Hmm... I suppose when you combine the requirement to fail the save (64%) and make the roll to persuade (even if just as a single request), which in this case was 40%, the total chance of this outcome was only about 1 in 4. Since this represented the highest level slot the caster can use, I guess it really ins't too crazy.

Thanks for the insight.

You need to take the entire context of the spell into account. It is not just a collection of save DCs and checks.

 

[Seramus]

Too powerful compared to what? The DM has infinite cyclops, and the player has very finite spell slots. Were the other players feeling upset or overshadowed?

 

[Shiroiken]

Charm Person's greatest advantage is that it allows you to shift NPC attitude in the midst of a fight. You still need to convince it to do what you want it to do. I would probably rule that attempting to do would take either your bonus action or action for the round depending on how involved your request is.

This is the key aspect: what does the DM require to call for the persuassion check. In my games I allow knowledge checks as a bonus action, but any kind of diplomacy that calls for a check requires an action. Taking 2 actions to turn a creature to your side in a game where 3-4 rounds of combat are the norm isn't overpowered by any means. If the DM allowed the check as part of the spell or on the same turn, that can be very powerful, especially if you go before the monster.