Critical Role Is Critical Role Scripted

[zakael19]

It seems railroady to plan events? Like, for example, “three days after the PCs arrive in villageberg, it gets attacked by a dragon”?

Does the event happen regardless of what the PCs do or do not do? Is it waiting in the wings until they arrive, and then precisely 3 days hence it happens?

I actually like @DEFCON 1 's point last page which is that players don't really mind a "railroad" if what we mean is a tour along tracks that'll hit natural next steps, and the players get to mess around at the stopover stations for a while. Players tend to dislike things where any time they try and push around a little before moving on to the next plot point the DM goes "uh uh uh, no you don't!" But as he said, if it feels natural to progress (and you've bought into a game where there's an expectation of a plot!) then all is well.

I remain very curious how much involvement Matt had with the WOTC Critical Role campaign book, because that thing is an absurd railroad as written for most of it.

 

[Charlaquin]

Does the event happen regardless of what the PCs do or do not do?

Of course not. I mean, if for example the players find and kill the dragon before even visiting the town (or within two days of arriving there), obviously it couldn’t attack. Part of what you sign up for as a DM is that no plan you make will survive contact with the players. Doesn’t stop you from planning for what you think they’re most likely to do, so you only have to pivot a bit when they do something unexpected rather than improvise literally everything.

Is it waiting in the wings until they arrive,

I mean, presumably it’s doing its own thing during that time. Whatever dragons do when they’re “off-camera.” Sleeping? Eating cattle? Whatever.

and then precisely 3 days hence it happens?

That’s one way to do it. Or you could, like, make it a random event you roll each day to see when it happens if that’s more your style. The point is not the specific details of the example, but merely that prepping events does not inherently mean railroading, much less scripting.

 

[zakael19]

Of course not. I mean, if for example the players find and kill the dragon before even visiting the town (or within two days of arriving there), obviously it couldn’t attack. Part of what you sign up for as a DM is that no plan you make will survive contact with the players. Doesn’t stop you from planning for what you think they’re most likely to do, so you only have to when they do something unexpected rather than improvise literally everything.

I mean, presumably it’s doing its own during that time. Whatever dragons do when they’re “off-camera.” Sleeping? Eating cattle? Whatever.

That’s one way to do it. Or you could, like, make it a random event you roll each day to see when it happens if that’s more your style. The point is not the specific details of the example, but merely that prepping events does not inherently mean railroading, much less scripting.

@pemerton ’s post was not about prepping events (scenarios? Interesting things to say?), but pre-determined plot - points / story beats / etc, which players are expected to encounter to progress to the next chapter/whatever.

If the dragon will attack the town because it doesn’t exist until the players get there and it’s a plot relevant item, there’s some collapsing railroad there (especially if you’ve dropped enough clues that the players are going to go to that town pursuing things unless they break the social contract of a plotted game). See Rime of the Frostmaiden for a egregious published version of literally this thing, lol.

 

[Charlaquin]

@pemerton ’s post was not about prepping events (scenarios? Interesting things to say?), but pre-determined plot - points / story beats / etc, which players are expected to encounter to progress to the next chapter/whatever.

@pemerton ‘a post was a response to my post, which was a response to @Whizbang Dustyboots post about @DrJawaPhD ’s post, which was most certainly not about pre-determined plot points players are expected to encounter to progress to the next chapter. Which was exactly the point I was trying to express to Dusty, and then later to pemerton. And now to you, I guess.

 

[pemerton]

It seems railroady to plan events? Like, for example, “three days after the PCs arrive in villageberg, it gets attacked by a dragon”?

Well, how do we even know that the PCs will arrive in "villageberg"?

And, suppose that the players do decide that their PCs go to this place, why are events being planned in advance of whatever actions the players might declare for their PCs?

 

[pemerton]

@pemerton ‘a post was a response to my post, which was a response to @Whizbang Dustyboots post about @DrJawaPhD ’s post, which was most certainly not about pre-determined plot points players are expected to encounter to progress to the next chapter. Which was exactly the point I was trying to express to Dusty, and then later to pemerton. And now to you, I guess.

I was responding to "coming up with a scenario, preparing some set-piece moments for significant story beats, seeding the adventure with relevant character spotlight moments, that kind of thing" and also "plot points", which I take to be a summary term for the first quoted phrase.

I don't know what "significant story beats" and "character spotlight moments" are, nor what planned "plot points" are, if they are not pre-determined plot points players are expected to encounter. I mean, I don't really see the difference between "pre-determined" and "planned". And I guess if the players are not expected to encounter them, then what is the planning for? What are "significant story beats" that are optional? Is the significance optional? How far in advance is it decided that such-and-such an event would be "significant"?

More generally, I think the whole idea of "plan story elements that you don't necessarily intend to use", on top of its lurking contradiction, is bad GMing advice. There are better approaches available, I think.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Railroading isn't planning out a story path in advance, it's forcing the players to stay on that path regardless of what actions the characters attempt.

 

[pemerton]

Railroading isn't planning out a story path in advance, it's forcing the players to stay on that path regardless of what actions the characters attempt.

Well I don't know what you mean by "forcing". I'm really thinking more about processes of play, and the expectations that are part of them.

By "railroading" I mean the GM authoring the key events of play - the "story beats" or "plot points" - in advance. I mean the players following the GM's breadcrumbs.

 

[Oofta]

Well I don't know what you mean by "forcing". I'm really thinking more about processes of play, and the expectations that are part of them.

By "railroading" I mean the GM authoring the key events of play - the "story beats" or "plot points" - in advance. I mean the players following the GM's breadcrumbs.

That's a pretty extreme view of railroading and probably not a very common one. A lot of people just want to play, they want breadcrumbs to follow. In my game I sometimes have divergent breadcrumbs and they can always go off in a random direction if they want.

There's a difference between a railroad and having a default direction to follow.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Well I don't know what you mean by "forcing". I'm really thinking more about processes of play, and the expectations that are part of them.

By "railroading" I mean the GM authoring the key events of play - the "story beats" or "plot points" - in advance. I mean the players following the GM's breadcrumbs.

This is why using a term like 'railroad' tends to be a stupid way to define what a person is meaning. Because one person's definition is never the same as another person's... and thus the argument devolves down to arguing the term, rather than the scenario the use of the term was supposedly describing.

So let's put the word 'railroad' to the side in this case and instead talk about the situation rather than the euphemism.