D&D 5E Is D&D 90% Combat?

In response to Cubicle 7’s announcement that their next Doctor Who role playing game would be powered by D&D 5E, there was a vehement (and in some places toxic) backlash on social media. While that backlash has several dimensions, one element of it is a claim that D&D is mainly about combat. Head of D&D Ray Winninger disagreed (with snark!), tweeting "Woke up this morning to Twitter assuring...

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In response to Cubicle 7’s announcement that their next Doctor Who role playing game would be powered by D&D 5E, there was a vehement (and in some places toxic) backlash on social media. While that backlash has several dimensions, one element of it is a claim that D&D is mainly about combat.

Head of D&D Ray Winninger disagreed (with snark!), tweeting "Woke up this morning to Twitter assuring me that [D&D] is "ninety percent combat." I must be playing (and designing) it wrong." WotC's Dan Dillon also said "So guess we're gonna recall all those Wild Beyond the Witchlight books and rework them into combat slogs, yeah? Since we did it wrong."

So, is D&D 90% combat?



And in other news, attacking C7 designers for making games is not OK.

 

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HammerMan

Legend
No, since the more prep I do the more likely I will have preped something cool for whatever the players might think do.

I am balancing time spent prepping stuff against doing stuff not D&D related though.
if I got paid minimum wage for back pay of stuff I worked on for a game and didn't use, I bet I could take next year off from my (far from min wage) job and still put some in the bank.
 

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HammerMan

Legend
If you make it up as you go, won't they have stuff to interact with as well? Why is prep necessary if this is the only use?
sometimes you HAVE to make it up as you go (go look at my post in 'how was your last game' half of it was) but in order for us to HAVE the ability to make stuff up we create worlds, have concepts ideas of history and significant places and cool encounters. Do you NOT prep worlds and/or inbetween sessions?
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I wonder if competition has some connotations/definitions that make it harder to use in the discussion.

I usually take competition as being something like the OED definition "the striving of two or more for the same object" -- where there are two sides like in football or baseball or tennis. It feels like the DM isn't in competition against the players in that sense, and the players aren't in competition against each other.

Similarly for "Compete - To strive with another, for the attainment of a thing, in doing something." it sounds like the "another" is another team and not a puzzle.

"I competed in puzzle solving" sounds like there are a bunch of different teams doing the same puzzles (like a convention with all kinds of groups going through the same module to see who did it best). It feels odd to me to say "I competed against todays cross-word puzzle".


If it's "struggled to overcome a challenge", does the challenge not have as much connotation of needing a thinking thing on the other side that's trying to beat you?
The players aren't competing. Presumably they have the same play agenda. However, play is largely about the GM presenting direct challenges and competitions to the PCs confined by the players. So there is competition here. To touch on the thread topic, combat is definitionally competition!

So, then, can we talk about how this competition might be approached? If there's merit to making it actually have teeth rather than a story about competition? If so, can we look at things like competitive integrity and see if it has useful things to say?
 

I wonder if competition has some connotations/definitions that make it harder to use in the discussion.

I usually take competition as being something like the OED definition "the striving of two or more for the same object" -- where there are two sides like in football or baseball or tennis. It feels like the DM isn't in competition against the players in that sense, and the players aren't in competition against each other.

Similarly for "Compete - To strive with another, for the attainment of a thing, in doing something." it sounds like the "another" is another team and not a puzzle.

"I competed in puzzle solving" sounds like there are a bunch of different teams doing the same puzzles (like a convention with all kinds of groups going through the same module to see who did it best). It feels odd to me to say "I competed against todays cross-word puzzle".


If it's "struggled to overcome a challenge", does the challenge not have as much connotation of needing a thinking thing on the other side that's trying to beat you?

In a TTRPG, competition can take many, many forms.

* A GM competing with themselves to run a better game than last session.

* A player competing with themselves to thread the skillful and thematic play needle better during this scene than they did in the prior scene.

* A team of players wanting to overcome the obstacle or attrition model for the game's engine + the adventure that they've chosen.

* A pair of players with competing dramatic needs in this scene playing as thematically hard as they can to see if their dramatic need wins out.

* A GM fairly competing with the players as hard as they can to give them "an honest win" after a conflict.

* A player trying to earn the Teamwork/Sacrifice or MVP or Struggled With Your Belief award at end of session.

* A player trying to harness their "describe to live" better in this session than they did last session (wherein last session, they may have inverted their mental paradigm and started with "how can I marshal as many resources as possible to win this test).

* A player trying to better exemplify a Player's Best Practice in this session (like "don't talk yourself out of fun" or "play your character like a stolen car") better than they did last session...or perhaps exemplify it for the table so others can learn from the Best Practices example (therefore creating a better group of players for this particular game).

* A GM might try to listen better for particular keys from players than they did prior.

* A GM might be putting training wheels on for players new to a system (so they're constantly going over mechanical bits in every decision-point) and they've kind of gotten stuck in a rut of doing this and they need to ease off.





There are dozens of ways that GMs will compete with themselves during a session. Where players will compete with GM content. Where players will compete with themselves (personally). Where players will compete for end of session rewards or will compete when dramatic needs collide in a scene.

Competition is a very very healthy thing between people who respect each other and have empathy and understanding and care for each other. I've competed healthily in physical combat, in dozens of sports, in mental exercises, in gaming, hell...in dusting and yardwork and mundane tasks. Being a better person than you were prior and challenging your friends and loved ones to be better than they were prior isn't a hostile environment. People bring that hostility into it because of their own hubris and deserved lack of credibility and restraint and empathy and understanding when engaging in one crucible of competition or another.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
sometimes you HAVE to make it up as you go (go look at my post in 'how was your last game' half of it was) but in order for us to HAVE the ability to make stuff up we create worlds, have concepts ideas of history and significant places and cool encounters. Do you NOT prep worlds and/or inbetween sessions?
For D&D? Surely. The game provides poor tools at best to do otherwise. For other games, like Blades? Nope, none. I actively avoid it. Those games provide excellent tools for doing this and actively fight prep. Fun thing is that they both create vibrant, coherent play.
 

Cadence

Legend
Supporter
The players aren't competing. Presumably they have the same play agenda. However, play is largely about the GM presenting direct challenges and competitions to the PCs confined by the players. So there is competition here. To touch on the thread topic, combat is definitionally competition!

So, then, can we talk about how this competition might be approached? If there's merit to making it actually have teeth rather than a story about competition? If so, can we look at things like competitive integrity and see if it has useful things to say?

In a TTRPG, competition can take many, many forms.

* A GM competing with themselves to run a better game than last session.

* A player competing with themselves to thread the skillful and thematic play needle better during this scene than they did in the prior scene.

* A team of players wanting to overcome the obstacle or attrition model for the game's engine + the adv
enture that they've chosen.

* A pair of players with competing dramatic needs in this scene playing as thematically hard as they can to see if their dramatic need wins out.

* A GM fairly competing with the players as hard as they can to give them "an honest win" after a conflict.

* A player trying to earn the Teamwork/Sacrifice or MVP or Struggled With Your Belief award at end of session.

* A player trying to harness their "describe to live" better in this session than they did last session (wherein last session, they may have inverted their mental paradigm and started with "how can I marshal as many resources as possible to win this test).

* A player trying to better exemplify a Player's Best Practice in this session (like "don't talk yourself out of fun" or "play your character like a stolen car") better than they did last session...or perhaps exemplify it for the table so others can learn from the Best Practices example (therefore creating a better group of players for this particular game).

* A GM might try to listen better for particular keys from players than they did prior.

* A GM might be putting training wheels on for players new to a system (so they're constantly going over mechanical bits in every decision-point) and they've kind of gotten stuck in a rut of doing this and they need to ease off.





There are dozens of ways that GMs will compete with themselves during a session. Where players will compete with GM content. Where players will compete with themselves (personally). Where players will compete for end of session rewards or will compete when dramatic needs collide in a scene.

Competition is a very very healthy thing between people who respect each other and have empathy and understanding and care for each other. I've competed healthily in physical combat, in dozens of sports, in mental exercises, in gaming, hell...in dusting and yardwork and mundane tasks. Being a better person than you were prior and challenging your friends and loved ones to be better than they were prior isn't a hostile environment. People bring that hostility into it because of their own hubris and deserved lack of credibility and restraint and empathy and understanding when engaging in one crucible of competition or another.

Thank you both! Those weren't what sprung to my mind when I first read the use of competition upthread... but are now all firmly there for going on.
 
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HammerMan

Legend
The players aren't competing. Presumably they have the same play agenda. However, play is largely about the GM presenting direct challenges and competitions to the PCs confined by the players. So there is competition here. To touch on the thread topic, combat is definitionally competition!

So, then, can we talk about how this competition might be approached? If there's merit to making it actually have teeth rather than a story about competition? If so, can we look at things like competitive integrity and see if it has useful things to say?
I always say that D&D is what informed how I like to play cards and sports. I don't keep score.

although it's been years, we would play infinity horse... go to local park with basketball. One of us would take a shot, if we made it everyone would try to duplicate it. If not next person tried... but make it miss what ever we never gave a letter. We were normally talking movies/comics/games and at the end of a few hours we would just call it a day... however some friends HATED it not being 'real'

when I play poker it can only be with some of my friend/family because I always want to start by handing out chips, useing them to bet, but if someone runs low or out we just give them more chips... I have been told that 'saps the fun from the game if you can't lose'
 

HammerMan

Legend
For D&D? Surely. The game provides poor tools at best to do otherwise. For other games, like Blades? Nope, none. I actively avoid it. Those games provide excellent tools for doing this and actively fight prep. Fun thing is that they both create vibrant, coherent play.
I don't know blades... but that most be a VERY different system if you start in a blank void with no idea of NPCs or location or plot hook...
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
sometimes you HAVE to make it up as you go (go look at my post in 'how was your last game' half of it was) but in order for us to HAVE the ability to make stuff up we create worlds, have concepts ideas of history and significant places and cool encounters. Do you NOT prep worlds and/or inbetween sessions?
Whoever you're replying to in this post has me blocked or I have them blocked, but I can say that I've done a lot of gaming that wasn't planned ahead at all.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I always say that D&D is what informed how I like to play cards and sports. I don't keep score.

although it's been years, we would play infinity horse... go to local park with basketball. One of us would take a shot, if we made it everyone would try to duplicate it. If not next person tried... but make it miss what ever we never gave a letter. We were normally talking movies/comics/games and at the end of a few hours we would just call it a day... however some friends HATED it not being 'real'

when I play poker it can only be with some of my friend/family because I always want to start by handing out chips, useing them to bet, but if someone runs low or out we just give them more chips... I have been told that 'saps the fun from the game if you can't lose'
So, let me ask, then, when you play Horse, is it okay if you shoot from the 3-point line and then the other player just goes in for an easy layup? When you play poker, is it okay if someone blatantly cheats by going through the deck for aces and dealing them, obviously, to themselves?

There's always integrity to competition. Keeping score is not integrity.
I don't know blades... but that most be a VERY different system if you start in a blank void with no idea of NPCs or location or plot hook...
It is. Getting out and exploring the space when RPGs happen can be quite enlightening and help you do better at running favorite systems, even if you discover you don't like the other options.
 

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