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D&D 5E Is D&D 90% Combat?

In response to Cubicle 7’s announcement that their next Doctor Who role playing game would be powered by D&D 5E, there was a vehement (and in some places toxic) backlash on social media. While that backlash has several dimensions, one element of it is a claim that D&D is mainly about combat. Head of D&D Ray Winninger disagreed (with snark!), tweeting "Woke up this morning to Twitter assuring...

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In response to Cubicle 7’s announcement that their next Doctor Who role playing game would be powered by D&D 5E, there was a vehement (and in some places toxic) backlash on social media. While that backlash has several dimensions, one element of it is a claim that D&D is mainly about combat.

Head of D&D Ray Winninger disagreed (with snark!), tweeting "Woke up this morning to Twitter assuring me that [D&D] is "ninety percent combat." I must be playing (and designing) it wrong." WotC's Dan Dillon also said "So guess we're gonna recall all those Wild Beyond the Witchlight books and rework them into combat slogs, yeah? Since we did it wrong."

So, is D&D 90% combat?



And in other news, attacking C7 designers for making games is not OK.

 

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Hussar

Legend
Out of curiousity. Suppose there was a single game out there that was significantly better than D&D for every player. What's a reasonable explanation for why such a game wouldn't became more popular than D&D?
Off the top of my head?

1. Marketing. WotC has spent millions (and lots of millions) in marketing D&D. Something no startup game could possibly match. Doesn't matter how good your game is if no one has heard of it.
2. Tradition - this is enormous. Gamers are INCREDIBLY attached to the game they play.
3. Adequacy - just because something else is significantly better does not make something bad. Being "good enough" has made lots of properties very, very popular.
 

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hawkeyefan

Legend
Out of curiousity. Suppose there was a single game out there that was significantly better than D&D for every player. What's a reasonable explanation for why such a game wouldn't became more popular than D&D?

It's a weird hypothetical because I don't really see there ever being one game that everyone will agree is better than another.

To answer, I'll ask if you really can't think of something...some movie or comic or game.....that was really good, but got overshadowed by something that you thought was not nearly as good.

You don't have a small burger place in your town that's actually better than McDonald's? You don't think that Deadwood is better than Keeping Up With the Kardashians? And so on.

There are so many examples of this, and so many reasons as to why it happens. Marketing, branding and name recognition, saturation....lots of things.

Edited to add: @Hussar ninja'd me while I was typing. But I think he mentions a really good point and that's the adequacy factor. I think that's a huge point, and one I hadn't mentioned, but it is important.
 
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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
What I've found playing Blades is that the archetypes don't feel quite as intuitive for my players, even though the game works to tie thematization to the mechanics of the playbooks. It could just be that dnd has become self-referential, esp through video games and movies, so that "elf archer" does a lot of work enabling the freeform system to work.

It's also not necessarily about crediting the system. Consider Tieflings, which have become queer-coded in 5e. I bet that the designers did not intend this at all, and it's not a dnd-ism that has made its way to popular crpgs generally. But something about the way they were depicted in 5e made them aesthetically interesting for queer rpg players.
From what I recall about you saying your players have had a hard time adjusting to Blades not being D&D, that sounds like they're trying to fit Blades archetypes into their D&D understanding and there's some pushback because D&D is getting in the way. It's not clear that someone not having to unlearn D&D would have the same disconnect. The archetypes in Blades absolutely sang to me when I read it first, which is a large part of the reason I learned the game. That and the tag line about selling drugs to ghosts. In other words, it doesn't seem like the problem here is a lack of good archetypes but rather dealing with the cognitive hash of a radically differently structured game and understanding what it even means to be able to so boldly express your character. I saw some of this same thing in the first Blades game I ran. Went away entirely as each player 'clicked'.

I'm about to start a Stonetop game, and the playbooks there are absolutely tripping me out with their heft and latent story. Can't wait to see who these characters are in that game.
 

Hussar

Legend
Let’s be honest here. Most of us have played DnD so long that we don’t even think too much about how it does stuff. It’s so second nature.

Which really hits home when you start trying out other systems.

I remember our ancient 007 games of yesteryear looking a LOT like DnD very quickly. It’s hard to break out of those habits.
 

From what I recall about you saying your players have had a hard time adjusting to Blades not being D&D, that sounds like they're trying to fit Blades archetypes into their D&D understanding and there's some pushback because D&D is getting in the way. It's not clear that someone not having to unlearn D&D would have the same disconnect. The archetypes in Blades absolutely sang to me when I read it first, which is a large part of the reason I learned the game. That and the tag line about selling drugs to ghosts. In other words, it doesn't seem like the problem here is a lack of good archetypes but rather dealing with the cognitive hash of a radically differently structured game and understanding what it even means to be able to so boldly express your character. I saw some of this same thing in the first Blades game I ran. Went away entirely as each player 'clicked'.

I'm about to start a Stonetop game, and the playbooks there are absolutely tripping me out with their heft and latent story. Can't wait to see who these characters are in that game.
They must unlearn what they have learned...
 

All kinds of things go into social conflict with any kinds of stakes at all (which is the only thing where you would need any rules for...you aren't pulling conflict resolution mechanics out for pleasantries without the prospect of consequentially changing situation, characters, or setting). Things like the nature the social hierarchy between interlocutors, their shared history, how their individual dramatic needs intersect with what is at stake (the nature of those things and the potency of those things), how their day has been, whether they are ill or well, who is beholding the interaction (therefore the social capital they stand to lose or stand to gain), who or what will back their play/bulwark their standing here and now (someone with a holstered weapon is better positioned than someone who isn't packing and that same person is worse positioned when they're downrange of the business end of a drawn shotgun).

So how can you model all of this stuff in a way that is exciting and well-tracks the volatile nature of people and intense social exchange with a lot on the line.

Well, one way to do that is with robust social conflict mechanics like Dogs in the Vineyard which is effectively a sort of poker game where people are anteing up, seeing, raising, and folding or escalating.

Below is an excerpt (as best I can recall) from an old Dogs in the Vineyard game I ran:

Mr Emil Oliver is a laborer. He makes rope, he chews tabaco, he's ill-tempered, and he badly breaks horses. He was entrusted to break the horse of a humble farmer. He shot it dead when it tried his patience one too many times. He's refused to compensate the farmer.

That is where you come in. As one of God's Watchdogs, you uphold the faith, keep the peace, and mete out justice.

You visit this Town (a small outlying community called Zachariah's Landing with ample juniper trees, farmlands, and a healthy creek and pond) and confront Mr Emil Oliver; try to talk some sense into him. You catch Mr Emil Oliver in a copse of Juniper trees, breaking one down to make some cordage.

"Just Talking" (social conflict) means you roll Acuity + Heart. You can bring in Relationships, Traits, and Belongings when you need to See or you want to Raise, but you only get those dice once (so if things escalate to fighting or, worse, guns...you can't pull out those Traits or Relationships then...so its a gamble when to bring them in).

You tell him who you are, you tell him your purpose; Mr Emil Oliver is going to make amends (this is what is at stake).

Mr Emil Oliver doesn't look up at first. He spits his tobacco and continues harvesting. (This game is "say yes...or roll the dice"...clearly Emil isn't having it, so I'm not "saying yes.")

Now we roll our dice.

Dog: 8d6 (you're pretty good at talking people down) - 6, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 2, 1

MEO: 7d6 (he's not so good at talking, but he's tough and he'll fight if need be) - 6, 6, 4, 4, 3, 1, 1

You're initiating the conflict, so you go first (making the first Raise - putting forward 2 dice that have to be equal or exceeded). Your Raise is both what your character does and the dice you’re using to back it up.

Dog: 5, 4 - "Let's make this easy. You could work off the debt in a single growing season."

MEO has to put forward as many dice as it takes to See this Raise (equal or better). 2 Dice = a Block/Dodge. 3 Dice = Taking the Blow so there will be Fallout (long term or short term impact to your character) that scales with the nature of the conflict. MEO has a Relationship (d8) with the Sheriff, so he decides now is a good time to pull this out. You get a 6 and put forward that dice along with another. So now its 6, 6, 6, 4, 4, 3, 1, 1

MEO: 6, 3 - "Sheriff Beck is the law around here. He said it the damn horse's fault."

Now it's MEO's turn to Raise.

MEO: 6, 6 - "He's the law around here. <Sneering and spitting> Not you."

Well, that isn't good. You can't match that with 2 Dice so you may have to Take the Blow. So here is a big decision. Now seems like a good time to bring in your 2d10 "I am the Wolf" Relationship with the King of Life that you've bought up during Reflection between Towns - 4, 8. So now you have the following left 8, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 2, 1

Dog: 8, 4 - "Sheriff Beck is in fact the law around...for worldly matters. But <as you ease off of your horse and pull up your poncho revealing your wolf-like birthmark>, Brother Oliver...I am the Wolf who claims the lambs when they stray from the shepherd's care. Their poor example weakens the integrity of the flock.

Now for the Raise.

Dog: 6, 5 - "I act directly on behalf of the Lord of Life. Pride and Injustice are wounds. I will take the arm to save the body (he knows you've got a big Colt and a knife, but you haven't flaunted either of them yet)."

So this forces MEO's hand with the 6, 6 or to Take the Blow by putting forward 3 dice or bringing out some other Traits or Relationships (which he then couldn't use later if either he or the Dog escalates).

This goes back and forth with both Mr Emil Oliver taking some Fallout because they have to Take the Blow by putting forward 3 dice to See a Raise. They both have a knife (EMO has a big ass one he is using to harvest the cordage). But the Dog has that very scary Colt revolver. MEO might be able to kill him, but at what cost? Should MEO escalate to fighting/knives or fold and pay down his Pride and Injustice by working off his debt at the farm.

Things are going south for the Dog as well. MEO is absolutely dangerous in a knife-fight. He'll likely win and that Colt will have to come out (escalate to guns)...but at what cost? He'll have a ton of fallout (social credibility costs, wounds from the fight) and the farmer won't be any better off. But Sin is Sin. It has to be cut out.

Mechanically, he can either risk bringing in a Trait to resolve the social conflict ("just talking") that he could instead keep available for a coming gun fight if it comes to that. Or he can escalate straight to guns and see if he can get MEO to fold before he kills him (or the Dog gets horribly wounded). The conversation has been creeping toward escalation and the Dog knows MEO has a history of problems with the law (and a Trait to go with it because he used it in the social conflict). He eventually pulls out his sacred earth to perform a sanctifying ritual on MEO, rebuke any demons that forced his hand in this (there was some evidence of Sorcery), and offer to help pay down his debt with a mule they confiscated from a cowboy in the last Town (d6 Belonging now gone). But MEO still has to work the growing season for the farmers, but he can keep half of what he works.

Mechanically, MEO can't answer the final Raise by the Dog (ran out of dice to equal or exceed the Raise put forth). So its either escalate to fighting/knives or fold/agree.

MEO agrees to the Dogs terms. Social Conlict is won by the Dog. Each of the Dog and MEO take some d4 fallout due to the social conflict. Justice served. Pride turned to humility. Injustice resolved. No one ends up a corpse. Between Towns, during Reflection, the Dog takes a new d6 Trait "Am I Shepherd in Wolf's Clothing?" and assigns two of his unassigned Relationship dice to Brother (no longer Mr) Emil Oliver.




Social Conflict Resolution and roleplaying don't have to be discrete things. They can be entangled and synergistic. They can amplify mental and emotional states, define play trajectory, powerfully challenge PC conception, and create brutal decision-points which coalesce into downstream character-altering events...for good or for ill (for the PCs...its always good for the players).

Because play and the players gets caught in the orbit of all of this stuff, you are yielding some of your sense of (PC) self to the course of the volatile events before you (preeeeeeeeeeeeetty much just like happens in real life). You're finding out who these people are. It is the antithesis of cosplaying power fantasy with nothing having a say on your internal ticker/self-conception but the untouchable, unperturbable course you've charted.

D&D can absolutely handle the absorption of this type of systemization of play. I know because other D&D loveletter RPGs do this (and I've hacked Dogs for Star Wars play that could easily have been fantasy Paladins rather than Jedi). Its not for everyone, but it ain't heresy either.
 

Aldarc

Legend
Let’s be honest here. Most of us have played DnD so long that we don’t even think too much about how it does stuff. It’s so second nature.

Which really hits home when you start trying out other systems.

I remember our ancient 007 games of yesteryear looking a LOT like DnD very quickly. It’s hard to break out of those habits.
IME, one of the biggest problems people have when trying to play other systems comes from people expecting Chess to play like Checkers, so to speak. But as you say, sometimes we don’t discover our assumptions about how we approach roleplaying until we play other systems that restructure the usual approach to roleplaying in new ways.
 
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BrokenTwin

Biological Disaster
It's also not necessarily about crediting the system. Consider Tieflings, which have become queer-coded in 5e. I bet that the designers did not intend this at all, and it's not a dnd-ism that has made its way to popular crpgs generally. But something about the way they were depicted in 5e made them aesthetically interesting for queer rpg players.
You know, it's not a concept I've heard directly stated myself (tieflings are queer coded), but it's not exactly surprising.
A group of people who can be born to perfectly ordinary parents, who are frequently ostracized from society at large and assumed to be dangerous and influenced by the devil due to something they were born with. Add that to the fact that most tiefling art is drawn to give them a more extravagant sense of style, and dare I say it, sex appeal, and yeah, it's not a surprise that they've been adopted by queer culture.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I remember our ancient 007 games of yesteryear looking a LOT like DnD very quickly. It’s hard to break out of those habits.
You aren't kidding. I own the old Victory Games Bond rpg too and every once in a while I pull it off my shelf to look through it in those moments when I think maybe I might want to run a spy game of that sort. And then when I look at the mechanics... that giant chart of Primary Chance versus Base Factor to get your target number and then after you roll a d100 you move over to the Quality Results chart to find out which of four levels of success you had from that d100 roll and then you try and figure out what a Level 1 success is versus a Level 2 etc... it always makes me think "Nowadays I just come up with a DC number, someone rolls a die plus a number, and depending on how many points higher than the DC they rolled I'll just make up how much they get in success." And all those chart seem quaint but completely unnecessary. LOL!
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Yes, same with the Backgrounds in 5E. They offer meaty hooks for improvising action and setting expectations.
Do you have examples of this? I ask because I found them stringy and easily forgotten. Honest question, are they expanded on in supplements and/or given further depth in players guides for published modules and campaigns?
 

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