D&D 5E Is D&D 90% Combat?

In response to Cubicle 7’s announcement that their next Doctor Who role playing game would be powered by D&D 5E, there was a vehement (and in some places toxic) backlash on social media. While that backlash has several dimensions, one element of it is a claim that D&D is mainly about combat.

Head of D&D Ray Winninger disagreed (with snark!), tweeting "Woke up this morning to Twitter assuring me that [D&D] is "ninety percent combat." I must be playing (and designing) it wrong." WotC's Dan Dillon also said "So guess we're gonna recall all those Wild Beyond the Witchlight books and rework them into combat slogs, yeah? Since we did it wrong."

So, is D&D 90% combat?



And in other news, attacking C7 designers for making games is not OK.

D&D 5E - Doctors & Daleks - Cubicle 7 Brings Doctor Who to D&D 5E

Cubicle 7 -- makers of the official Doctor Who roleplaying game -- has announced that the Doctor will officially be coming to 5E soon under the name Doctors and Daleks. There are no dates or details yet, over than that the Doctors and Daleks Player's Guide will launch 'soon'. A NEW COMPANION...

www.enworld.org

 

[Scruffy nerf herder]

I'm not so sure some folk would ever find it fun just pretending to be someone else and simply interacting with NPCs. Everything, in game or in life, is done for a purpose.

I'm not entirely sure you understand that I never meant that this was the standard way I run combat. And that's very probably my fault. The whole point was variety, and in both cases it was the players finding ways around what would otherwise have been normal combat encounters.

Now when it comes to the issue you mentioned about pretending to be someone else and interacting with NPCs, wouldn't it be awfully strange for players not to like those things? I mean they do understand that they're playing D&D and not a video game, right? If you couldn't even talk to the monsters then they wouldn't feel real at all, they'd just be minis and stats.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The first group they run across, there's a pack of zombies, a zombie ogre, and some death knights. Things were looking scary but a player could speak Undead and after some very fun RP the group not only let them pass, but the ogre befriended them, and even surprised them by becoming a second PC later on.

Were the zombies under the control of the death knights?
Were they independent and had no master controlling them?
Why would they befriend the party instead of just attacking them?

Zombies are INT 3, so RP opportunity seems limited IMO.
Any RP with them would probably involve checks at disadvantage since they are hostile, or at least have a high DC (20+) or something.

There is no Undead language unless that is just in your game? Death Knights speak Abyssal (maybe you meant that?) and with INT 12 would be able to have a RP exchange with, but with WIS 16 and CHA 18 convincing them not to kill you seems like it would take a lot of skill.

The CR for the encounter you describe basically tells me this is a tier 3, likely tier 4, party? I mean a Death Knight is CR 17, and you said there were "some" of them, and with the fodder of a zombie ogre and other zombies would bump the challenge substantially. So, at that level you could probably get away with quite a bit, but just through RP seems a stretch. If the party is lower level, then this was a TPK that the DM intended to not happen and so encouraged the RP route IMO.

So, while the encounters you describe are certainly possible (I've had players RP their way out of combat numerous times!), it would be one I would have been very interested in seeing!

Their next encounter? An ogre who was victorious against another group of undead, with a narrow passage leading into the wider room within which he stood. The players fought him at range while he pummeled the passage. Then the enraged and nearly dead ogre caved it in on himself and half the party, forcing a player to make death saving throws while another finished the ogre off and another frantically tried to save her in time, what with her trapped under rubble.

Huh? A single Ogre guarding a passage, and these PCs had to deal with him at range?

I mean, Ogres are not bright at all (INT 5), but at least speak Common. Actually, Zombies can understand Common even if they can't speak it, so why would anyone even need to speak "Undead" as a language to have a RP with them??? But, I digress...

So why not RP can convince the Ogre to let you pass? Seems like that would be much easier than the prior encounter.

In neither of those cases did a real combat happen, the first was pure rp and the second was more rp than combat.

Really? The second sounds like nothing BUT combat. What RP was there? It sounds like you might be using RP to mean narration?

So I look at people talking this way about D&D and I think wtf? Have people heard of variety? Who's running nothing but standard combat every time?

Sadly, you are probably more right than wrong on this. IME many groups do choose to run "standard" combat every time. Even my group has more recently changed to a mindset to find non-violent solutions to conflict if possible. Since that is the game style I want to run, I've even decided to award +50% XP when the group manages to keep the killing, etc. to a minimum. Sometimes standard combat is needed, even unavoidable, but there is so much more to D&D than combat, even how combat can be done.

Finally, thanks for sharing your encounter experiences. Please understand the questions and tone, while skeptical, wasn't meant to imply any disrespect for your style or imagination. Those statements were more meant to show how other DMs might question the encounters and how those results played out. I'm sure your group had a lot of fun (I know I've had some pretty whacky and fun RP turn combats around in my time!) so that is the most important thing!

 

[Scruffy nerf herder]

Were the zombies under the control of the death knights?
Were they independent and had no master controlling them?
Why would they befriend the party instead of just attacking them?

Zombies are INT 3, so RP opportunity seems limited IMO.
Any RP with them would probably involve checks at disadvantage since they are hostile, or at least have a high DC (20+) or something.

There is no Undead language unless that is just in your game? Death Knights speak Abyssal (maybe you meant that?) and with INT 12 would be able to have a RP exchange with, but with WIS 16 and CHA 18 convincing them not to kill you seems like it would take a lot of skill.

The CR for the encounter you describe basically tells me this is a tier 3, likely tier 4, party? I mean a Death Knight is CR 17, and you said there were "some" of them, and with the fodder of a zombie ogre and other zombies would bump the challenge substantially. So, at that level you could probably get away with quite a bit, but just through RP seems a stretch. If the party is lower level, then this was a TPK that the DM intended to not happen and so encouraged the RP route IMO.

So, while the encounters you describe are certainly possible (I've had players RP their way out of combat numerous times!), it would be one I would have been very interested in seeing!


Huh? A single Ogre guarding a passage, and these PCs had to deal with him at range?

I mean, Ogres are not bright at all (INT 5), but at least speak Common. Actually, Zombies can understand Common even if they can't speak it, so why would anyone even need to speak "Undead" as a language to have a RP with them??? But, I digress...

So why not RP can convince the Ogre to let you pass? Seems like that would be much easier than the prior encounter.


Really? The second sounds like nothing BUT combat. What RP was there? It sounds like you might be using RP to mean narration?


Sadly, you are probably more right than wrong on this. IME many groups do choose to run "standard" combat every time. Even my group has more recently changed to a mindset to find non-violent solutions to conflict if possible. Since that is the game style I want to run, I've even decided to award +50% XP when the group manages to keep the killing, etc. to a minimum. Sometimes standard combat is needed, even unavoidable, but there is so much more to D&D than combat, even how combat can be done.

Finally, thanks for sharing your encounter experiences. Please understand the questions and tone, while skeptical, wasn't meant to imply any disrespect for your style or imagination. Those statements were more meant to show how other DMs might question the encounters and how those results played out. I'm sure your group had a lot of fun (I know I've had some pretty whacky and fun RP turn combats around in my time!) so that is the most important thing!

I'd like to offer an apology in advance for the less than ideal quotation format here, as sadly I don't have a good device for replying directly to your sectioned response like I would normally prefer. In lieu of that I'll be responding to each respective section with my own segmented sections.

-Please understand that I've been running D&D since 98 and while I certainly enjoy using the Monster Manual for 5th Edition, I haven't used CR for maybe a decade and don't necessarily follow the manual at all when it comes to how powerful a given monster is or even what that monster is like in terms of the lore.

When I make a campaign it is typically in a unique setting with unique races and monsters. This is simply what my players and I prefer. We are less concerned about doing everything "correct" and more concerned with very finely tailoring the experience to our own tastes.

Frankly I didn't even know those mob's stats until I began my combat log and drew up some templates from scratch. It is part of how I scale encounters on the fly.

Generally, the undead in this setting are around 5-9 Int depending on how much mental degradation they've experienced. As it so happens two players are now undead because they put on a helmet containing conscious, parasitic Mycelium (fungus), which zombified them.

It's funny that you ask whether the Death Knights were in charge, because the zombie ogre literally swallowed one of them whole before they even noticed the party, so I could terrify the party with memories of being swallowed by a similar mob in the past and my brother having to deal with being swallowed whole in the middle of a fight. Ogres are freaking huge in this setting, so this guy was clearly the alpha and the one doing the talking.

And lmao, I totally understand you thinking this is a high level encounter but everyone was lvl 2. In fact the whole campaign they've been hitting above their weight class, or simply running into things they could never hope to face head on in that moment. Obviously that's not for every party, that style of DMing, and it's not a style I've always used either.

-The ogre in the second encounter was too large to fit into the passage. Later on the party questioned how the ogre even got in there, not to criticize but because we all found it amusing.

So the ogre was there in a chamber while the party was in another one where the undead encounter was. This dude was in no frame of mind to reason with someone else. He was abducted by the same pirates he was looking to join and subjected to a twisted test in which he was the sole survivor of his group, after clobbering the undead in the area he was in. So picture a crazed, panicked, already injured ogre who is underground and can't even see.

-Oh but it WAS basically all RP, my friend. The ogre couldn't fit through in order to get at the party and the only party member with dark vision was peppering him with arrows while the others got ready to support him if necessary. They all were in the passage, when the ogre had pounded on the nearest entrance to the passage until it caved in.

So only one party member was attacking anything and the ogre couldn't even directly attack them.

-Oh if I were another DM I'd have questioned many of the same aspects as well. Thank you for your questions, and your detailed and thoughtful response, Reborn.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Thanks for the additional details @Scruffy nerf herder!

My own experience goes all the way back to '78, so learning the CR system in 5E was challenging. My first random encounter was 10 orcs vs. 6 level 1 PCs. One PC died and the others barely survived! In AD&D, that would have been a reasonable encounter, but in 5E it was deadly!

Having setting dependent material is fine and great! I have so much house-rule/homebrew I've practically made my own game, LOL!

The funny thing was the scenario sounded like tier 1, but the death knights alone cranked that up RAW so much!

Again, thanks for sharing. Cheers!

 

[Scruffy nerf herder]

Thanks for the additional details @Scruffy nerf herder!

My own experience goes all the way back to '78, so learning the CR system in 5E was challenging. My first random encounter was 10 orcs vs. 6 level 1 PCs. One PC died and the others barely survived! In AD&D, that would have been a reasonable encounter, but in 5E it was deadly!

Having setting dependent material is fine and great! I have so much house-rule/homebrew I've practically made my own game, LOL!

The funny thing was the scenario sounded like tier 1, but the death knights alone cranked that up RAW so much!

Again, thanks for sharing. Cheers!

78? Oh so you're of the nobility who don't even see the point of the thief class because "thief" stuff is really just adventurer stuff? Hehehehe man it's wild just how much things have changed.

I could barely even begin to understand the edition you had back then, the times that I tried reading it. But man is it cool and I badly want to do either that or run something using nothing but the Greyhawk supplement. All of those campaigns from back then, like Die Vecna Die, Tomb of Horrors, Cult of the Reptile God, and Temple of Elemental Evil are comfort food and epitomized the D&D I grew up loving.

 

[DND_Reborn]

78? Oh so you're of the nobility who don't even see the point of the thief class because "thief" stuff is really just adventurer stuff? Hehehehe man it's wild just how much things have changed.

LOL, I don't know about nobility, but I was just 5 when I started (my older sister, cousins, and friends had a game; they let me and my friend (also 5) join them). My first PC was a magic-user named "Dartson", because he threw darts when he was out of spells...

I could barely even begin to understand the edition you had back then, the times that I tried reading it. But man is it cool and I badly want to do either that or run something using nothing but the Greyhawk supplement. All of those campaigns from back then, like Die Vecna Die, Tomb of Horrors, Cult of the Reptile God, and Temple of Elemental Evil are comfort food and epitomized the D&D I grew up loving.

Honestly, there are aspects of AD&D that I still love and find superior to 5E. A while ago, I played Keep on the Borderlands with my group using AD&D 1E rules and they loved a lot of it. Having dice other than d20s used, having unique ability modifiers instead of just +X for everything, and non-spontaneous spellcasting, along with a lot of other things.

But, all those things DO increase the complexity of the game, which for many players a prime appeal of 5E is the simplicity.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'd like to offer an apology in advance for the less than ideal quotation format here, as sadly I don't have a good device for replying directly to your sectioned response like I would normally prefer. In lieu of that I'll be responding to each respective section with my own segmented sections.

-Please understand that I've been running D&D since 98 and while I certainly enjoy using the Monster Manual for 5th Edition, I haven't used CR for maybe a decade and don't necessarily follow the manual at all when it comes to how powerful a given monster is or even what that monster is like in terms of the lore.

When I make a campaign it is typically in a unique setting with unique races and monsters. This is simply what my players and I prefer. We are less concerned about doing everything "correct" and more concerned with very finely tailoring the experience to our own tastes.

Frankly I didn't even know those mob's stats until I began my combat log and drew up some templates from scratch. It is part of how I scale encounters on the fly.

Generally, the undead in this setting are around 5-9 Int depending on how much mental degradation they've experienced. As it so happens two players are now undead because they put on a helmet containing conscious, parasitic Mycelium (fungus), which zombified them.

It's funny that you ask whether the Death Knights were in charge, because the zombie ogre literally swallowed one of them whole before they even noticed the party, so I could terrify the party with memories of being swallowed by a similar mob in the past and my brother having to deal with being swallowed whole in the middle of a fight. Ogres are freaking huge in this setting, so this guy was clearly the alpha and the one doing the talking.

And lmao, I totally understand you thinking this is a high level encounter but everyone was lvl 2. In fact the whole campaign they've been hitting above their weight class, or simply running into things they could never hope to face head on in that moment. Obviously that's not for every party, that style of DMing, and it's not a style I've always used either.

-The ogre in the second encounter was too large to fit into the passage. Later on the party questioned how the ogre even got in there, not to criticize but because we all found it amusing.

So the ogre was there in a chamber while the party was in another one where the undead encounter was. This dude was in no frame of mind to reason with someone else. He was abducted by the same pirates he was looking to join and subjected to a twisted test in which he was the sole survivor of his group, after clobbering the undead in the area he was in. So picture a crazed, panicked, already injured ogre who is underground and can't even see.

-Oh but it WAS basically all RP, my friend. The ogre couldn't fit through in order to get at the party and the only party member with dark vision was peppering him with arrows while the others got ready to support him if necessary. They all were in the passage, when the ogre had pounded on the nearest entrance to the passage until it caved in.

So only one party member was attacking anything and the ogre couldn't even directly attack them.

-Oh if I were another DM I'd have questioned many of the same aspects as well. Thank you for your questions, and your detailed and thoughtful response, Reborn.

First, let me say this isn't any kind of dig at your game -- sounds like you have a ton of fun and that's great. But, in the discussion of how 5e's combat balance is, your example is using a game where you're largely ignoring a lot of 5e rules, and I'm kinda picking up a lot of your game does this often if it strikes you as cool. Again, totes fine, but not terribly relevant when discussing 5e to get stories about how your personal hack works, especially when it seems to diverge in areas pretty strongly.

I mean, did you use the social interaction mechanics in the DMG to handle the negotiations with the undead? Did you use attacking an object rules to figure out when the ogre brought down the ceiling? I ignore these on occasion, for sure, but I also don't try to present those moments of play as representative of 5e.

And, again, I'm struck by how often people seem willing to credit their homebrew back to D&D without caveat.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Here’s an article I came across today that was just posted within the last couple of weeks that I think does a good job addressing the topic.

Gnome Stew No Combat

 

[Campbell]

I think an interesting follow up question would be how much of time where players are not actively engaged in combat are they essentially focused on questions of violence - how do we murder thing or what things should we murder ?

I was having a discussion with a friend about Classic D&D last week where he talked about how much less time they spent fighting things. I pointed out that all the other activities he was talking about were basically still about fighting/violence. It was just about gaining advantages to improve your odds in the fights.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think an interesting follow up question would be how much of time where players are not actively engaged in combat are they essentially focused on questions of violence - how do we murder thing or what things should we murder ?

I was having a discussion with a friend about Classic D&D last week where he talked about how much less time they spent fighting things. I pointed out that all the other activities he was talking about were basically still about fighting/violence. It was just about gaining advantages to improve your odds in the fights.

A lot of this is why I started this thread:

D&D General - D&D without Death. Is it possible? (+)

A bit of background first: I am a pretty mellow person in general. I like spirited competition (sports, etc.) but abhor violence really. I've gotten to the point where I don't watch movies or play video games with violence just for the sake of violence and killing in general has bothered me for...

www.enworld.org

I never really got the idea across well, but the discussions helped me all the same.