Is D&D all about murder and pillaging?

Sorry RC, had to take you off ignore to see.

And yet you responded to my post, which in turn prompted my response.

And, if you couldn't see/didn't read the original post, what is the point of making a declaration of what is or is not in that post (i.e., your "picking and choosing" comment)? Hilarious that you would say "perhaps going back and rereading posts with a bit more care might help"! (I am assuming that was intended to be funny.)

Ah, well, Consistency, Thy Name is Hussar. :lol:
 
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What insensible arrogance. This is not a debate club.

Not everyone is concerned with rationality in discussion, particulary on the InterWebs. Gotcha. :lol:

But what evidence is relevant to a point is a relevant observation when one is accused of "picking and choosing".
 
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Now, considering that none of the classes in Basic/Expert have any abilities tied to exploration

No one can find a trap? Locate a secret door? Notice shifting walls or sloping passages? Really? I didn't even have to crack open the book to know you are wrong.

and the game does not in any way reward exploration

Assuming that "fun" is not considered a reward, and assuming that connections to others/better understanding of the world/respect of others/etc. are not considered rewards (in short, assuming that levelling is the only reward), you are correct.
 

Assuming that "fun" is not considered a reward, and assuming that connections to others/better understanding of the world/respect of others/etc. are not considered rewards (in short, assuming that levelling is the only reward), you are correct.

I feel rewarded by pretending to be an elf or whatever... "the game" doesnt grant me a reward because I choose to do so what it does is provide a context in which to do it. And the game could be constructed to reward this it might involve the pcs voting who was the best elf ;-).(My daughter cheering is damn cool anyway).

The game gives no system of gaining charisma because of all those exploration contacts you have made.(a reasonable repercussion and one way to tally or reward the meeting people part of exploration). There are skills that should be going up for that explorer... but he didnt level at all so no gain... does that makes sense? can you claim it is about those exploration things when it is the accident run in with the natives... that gained you the improved skills that make you a better explorer?

In most D&D play, I have experienced the violence can be assumed to have been heroic (what targets for your violence makes the difference between a cops violence and a criminals) so even saying its largely about "murder" is fundamentally wrong.

So becoming more heroic is loosely tied to acts of heroism... it is saving the princess and village and stopping the war these should grant experience points explicitly... if you kill the dragon but it is too late for the above. Nyeah get a few to represent preventing future depravity on his part.
 

Is D&D all about murder and pillaging?

Mostly it is. When you play a D&D game you only use the rules when you kill something. Sure, you can tell a story which is not about murder and looting, but this is essentially freeforming as the D&D rules don't really help you with that (mostly, 3E had non combat skills and spells. And while 4E removed a lot of non combat stuff and concentrated even more on killing and looting, it still has skill challenges and some rituals).

So while you can have a D&D game with intrigue and other no-killing7looting stuff in it, you only really use what D&D offers when you do kill something.
 
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The game gives no system of gaining charisma because of all those exploration contacts you have made.(a reasonable repercussion and one way to tally or reward the meeting people part of exploration).

The first version of D&D that did so (that I know of, off of the top of my head) is 1e's rules for henchman and hireling loyalty, which directly rewards how you treat people. Alignment, perhaps, should also be considered, especially in 1e where an alignment change is so costly. 1e OA's rules for honour are another example.

See also Beyond the Crystal Cave, a 1e module where there is plenty of treasure, and lots of creatures the PCs can fight -- but in which taking the treasure and/or fighting the creatures is a uniformly (or nearly so) bad idea. Indeed, the player who thinks D&D is "all about looting and killing" will very, very likely never return from this expedition. Even if much more powerful than what the module recommends.

(EDIT: I would like to see a 4e BtCC; there is a lot of material in there that could become skill challenges in the 4e system. I wonder if it would be as fun in 4e as it was in 1e? No matter what one might think, 1e was about exploartion enough that TSR envisioned and published an adventure where combat and looting were a bad idea.....can any other edition say the same?)

Again, take a look at the advice Gary Gygax gives players in the back of the 1e PHB. It is a lot more involved than "kill things and take their stuff". Gary highly recommends parlays, when possible.

Look at the monsters in the 1e MM. Are we really to assume that pixies, nymphs, dryads, and unicorns are included so that they may be killed and their stuff taken?

Look at the magic items in the 1e DMG, or the 2e Encylopedia Magica (excellent books!). There have been a plethora of magic items throughout the history of the game that have nothing to do with fighting or looting. They very often have to do with other goals, including (especially) having fun. Thus, a Trident of Fish Command appears in 1e, and a Lyre of Building, etc., etc., etc.

(EDIT: Look at the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, as well as the Wilderness Survival Guide. Lots of rules about exploration, the perils of the environment, and the rewards that can be reaped without combat from the environment, such as complete mining rules in the DSG, from initial assay to turning the raw ore into valuable metal.)

This thread is, in a way, very closely tied to the "World Beyond the Dungeon" thread. There are more rules related to combat because combat, for the average player, presumably requires more rules than talking. Similarly, there is more information about dungeon and cave environments offered, but not because it is assumed that bears, pixies, and treants are going to be found deep underground -- it is rather assumed that the average player (and DM) has a better idea of what a forest is like than he does what a ruined tunnel is like.

And, just as the WBTD thread is replete with folks who will ignore (or deny the existence of) all the non-dungeon rules, wilderness monsters, and non-dungeon advice given to press home their idea that it has always been "all about the dungeon", so too is this thread replete with folks who will ignore (or deny the existence of) non-combat rules, monsters unlikely to be fought, and non-combat/looting advice to press home their idea that it has always been "all about the killing and looting".

It is hard for some people to imagine that the game was different in editions they did not play, or that it has been played differently by other people over the course of its long history. Just as it is hard for some people, looking at a particular edition's combat-enhanced focus to imagine that it can be played quite differently by others (even if the official adventures start every encounter with "Have the players place their miniatures....).

It's short sighted. It's seeing some of the trees without seeing the forest. It's some other, better, cliche that I can't think of right now.

The advice given to DMs and players has changed. This is also true, and (IMHO and IME) influences those who begin with a given edition more strongly than it does veteran players and DMs.

Even so, the game is what you make of it. This is true for all editions.
 
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The Dm can even hand wave popularity in to peoples response to your character (impossible to transfer that character feature to another game)

And yet to get better at any of the so called exploration skills which were listed as the old D&D was about exploring like climbing a wall or listening well or casting the out of combat spells ... was wired tightly to killing an orc or snagging treasure. Shrug.

We cant use the adventures where you have to be careful what you kill and whose stuff you take as evidence it is not about killing and taking things... It just means you need to be smart about it while you do it.
 
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True, but when you read the interviews with folks who were integral to the game's development, they weren't playing only to gain levels. According to Tim Kask (in his Dragon Roots column), for instance, playing the game to level is like riding a roller coaster to get to the end -- it completely misses the point.
 



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