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Is D&D Art?

When you play D&D, are you creating art?


I have repeatedly said things like "defining art is like defining god, so I won't try," "art is subjective," "what is art to some may not be art to most" and even that "under the right conditions, playing D&D could be art, but it has to involve something more than just the intent to play the game.
If you truly believe that art is undefinable then you cannot state that something categorically is not art, as you keep doing.

You've taken two mutually inconsistent positions: 1) art is undefinable and 2) art must be created with the intent to be art.

Moreover, the second definition is itself circular as is uses the word "art" to describe what is "art".

In other words, if D&D is art, then the intent to play D&D is the intent to create art. If D&D is not art then the intent to play D&D is not the intent to create art. Until you can explain why the intent to play D&D cannot be art, you're just running around in circles.

I said it was possible to use D&D as an artistic medium, but that I have never seen it used that way...which means there has been no "categorical denial."
I understand that. I don't understand the basis for your uncategorical denial because you haven't yet explained why the intent to create art does not include the intent to play D&D.

You still missed that the "specific intent to create art" qualifier IS in that article
No, I didn't. The first two quotes are discussing the evaluation of art, not the definition. Here's the whole paragraph (emphasis mine):

Philosopher Richard Wollheim distinguishes three approaches to assessing the aesthetic value of art: the realist, whereby aesthetic quality is an absolute value independent of any human view; the objectivist, whereby it is also an absolute value, but is dependent on general human experience; and the relativist position, whereby it is not an absolute value, but depends on, and varies with, the human experience of different humans.[2] An object may be characterized by the intentions, or lack thereof, of its creator, regardless of its apparent purpose. A cup, which ostensibly can be used as a container, may be considered art if intended solely as an ornament, while a painting may be deemed craft if mass-produced.

So when Wolheim is characterizing art based on the artist's intentions, he's already decided that he is evaluating is art. For Wolheim, intent does not define art; it is a criteria upon which art can be judged.

Your third quote (emphasis added) -- "Art tends to facilitate intuitive rather than rational understanding, and is usually consciously created with this intention" does not require an intent to create art. It is merely saying that art is usually created through a conscious act. And playing D&D is a conscious act. (It also implies that art can be created without any conscious act at all, which would be impossible if art were to require the intent to create art.)

Likewise, D&D's basic function is to formalize the game of pretend.
So is improvisational theater, which is generally considered an artform.

If what you do when you sit down to play the game of D&D is play a formalized game of pretend of D&D rules, then that is all you are doing- no art is generated.
Why? "Pretend" inherently requires imagination, which is the heart of the creative process. Even Duchamp was being creative when he chose to take a urinal and call it "Fountain". Intentional creativity seems to be the heart of what it means to intend to make art.

Consider this: there have been a few cases in which people have tried to get stripper dancing and other kinds of public nudity to be considered free speech and/or legitimate, protected works of art.
Are you now adopting the legal definition of art?

Now lets address the other non-wiki websites you link to... the first is by Frances Ting, who wrote the article as a requirement for a class she is taking. (It's not even clear that this is a class about art, as opposed to, say, writing.) Why should we care that you found someone else who uses the same problematic definition as you? She cites no basis for her opinion, and she's reacting to the contrary opinion of some other guy named Brett Martin we know nothing about.

The second is a blog by someone named "cathy" describing theories by Collingwood and Beardsley. But neither cathy, Collingwood, nor Beardsley argue that an artists must have an intent to "make art". From the blog Collingswood argues that artists need only have a need to express a feeling. Beardsley argues that artists must undergo a series of emotional changes during the process of creation. And cathy herself states that the difference between craft and art is that with art, the artists doesn't necessarily recognize what the produce will look like before it is done.

Under all three of these definitions, D&D is art. D&D involves the DM and players exprressing themselves emotionally, and those emotions will change throughout a session. Most importantly, under cathy's definition, D&D is not a craft because neither the DM nor the players can know what a D&D session will encompass until it is over.

The third link merely expresses that an artist acts intentionally, as opposed to computer software, which has no sapience. The writer, Christipher Lolito, never says the artists must intend to create art; only that he must act intentionally. He is contrasting artists from their tools and saying that photo manipulation software is a tool, not an artist. Here, the DM and players also act intentionally when they play. They too use tools, like dice and minis.

I see no reason why "playing a formalized game of pretend" does not constitute an "intent to create art" other than you insist that it isn't. Nothing you've quoted or cited (other than the self-admitted amateur blog of Frances Ting) comes remotely close to the idea that an artist must intend to create art or that the intent to create art does not include the intent to play a game of formalized pretend, like D&D.
 
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It's really not conscious - unless of course throughout the day you've constantly noticed brief blackouts in your vision, because your brain doesn't fill the gap almost every time you blink ;)
 

The second is a blog by someone named "cathy" describing theories by Collingwood and Beardsley. But neither cathy, Collingwood, nor Beardsley argue that an artists must have an intent to "make art". From the blog Collingswood argues that artists need only have a need to express a feeling. Beardsley argues that artists must undergo a series of emotional changes during the process of creation. And cathy herself states that the difference between craft and art is that with art, the artists doesn't necessarily recognize what the produce will look like before it is done.

I call bullcrap on two statements from this block.
"undergo a series of emotional changes during the process of creation" is just some dude trying to air some psycho babble to the underlying metaphor.
and
"artists doesn't necessarily recognize what the produce will look like before it is done."
a good chunk of art has to be planned. As my wife was told in painting class, "this is painting class, not drawing class, use a projector or whatever it takes to get it on canvas" in response to acceptance to using grids and projectors to get the basic outline up there. Airbrush painting requires meticulous planning in layers, in order to apply the masking to apply the colors.

In any event, my best works (as recognized by humans you don't know or trust) violate those 2 rules. There's not some underlying anguish getting excised from my soul when I'm painting. It's still art.
 


And I agree. Either way, that article doesn't say that art needs to be made with the intent to create art.

I feel like Danny's getting dog-piled on, with regards to what he posted, and whether that's his stance, or just something he posted or summarized imprecisely.

so more to the point, without putting it all on Danny:
some article implies that Intent is as aspect to a thing getting Art status

Wrecan found some articles that don't talk about or seem to imply anything about Intent during the creation of art.

So the requirement for Intent as a component of achieving Art status is in dispute.

i have a rule of thumb, that if I hear 2 valid, but opposing arguments , they probably negate each other in the signifigance of the matter.

So one side says Intent matters, another side says it doesn't. they both have evidence. Assuming both are true, Intent is probably a dead end on the qualification of Art.

One could argue that my method still just took a side, but I look at as the issue was Is D&D Art. Intent was a supporting piece to an argument, and it has too much dispute to make it viably useful.

Kind of like when your 2 kids come to you squabbling with a he said/she said thing. It's pretty clear at least one of them did something wrong, their arguments are both negating each other. So cut to the chase and spank them both. :)

You probably don't want Judge Janx on your case...
 

so more to the point, without putting it all on Danny:
some article implies that Intent is as aspect to a thing getting Art status

Wrecan found some articles that don't talk about or seem to imply anything about Intent during the creation of art.
Actually, Dan said he found articles implying intent to create art is a requirement of art. But most of the articles don't say that; and the one article that does was written by someone who admits she may not be well-versed in the subject. To the extent the articles Danny found say anything pertinent, they work against his argument, not in favor of it. I haven't found any articles. I've only been examining the ones Danny has been linking.
 

Actually, Dan said he found articles implying intent to create art is a requirement of art. But most of the articles don't say that; and the one article that does was written by someone who admits she may not be well-versed in the subject. To the extent the articles Danny found say anything pertinent, they work against his argument, not in favor of it. I haven't found any articles. I've only been examining the ones Danny has been linking.

[FONT=Constantia, serif]Chill dude :) Us young bucks are allowed our fun, but if we get too frisky Judge Janx can turn up with the castration iron anytime :-S:eek::.-(:(
[/FONT]
 


In many art communities for some time now the artist expressing their artistic intent has become a faux pas. Intention is understood to be utterly unrecognizable, so is no longer a descriptor of anything.


I have another question perhaps people could answer instead of trying to define art. To me that's like trying to define D&D.

What is/are the goal(s) of art?

and also,

What is/are the goal(s) of D&D?


If there's some overlap, then some of what you're aiming for is an artistic product. If not, then not.
 

What is/are the goal(s) of art?

and also,

What is/are the goal(s) of D&D?


If there's some overlap, then some of what you're aiming for is an artistic product. If not, then not.
I'd say my goals for running a D&D session are pretty similar to my goals if I was writing a script for a TV show.

*Create dramatic moments
*Involve all the characters
*Include action scenes
*Surprise everyone
*Say something about life
*Manage my resources
*Finish on time
 

Into the Woods

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