Is D&D becoming more fantastical?

[jdrakeh]

It's just started to become more abundant and all the talk about 'once per day encounters' seems to encourage a more fantastical approach to gaming where characters can do magical things right out of the block.

Actually, that seems awfully similar to the way AD&D 1e monks were handled. They were, for all intents and purposes, supernatually endowed martial artists. And, of course, you have more prominant examples of 'natural' magical ability in the UA classes -- which are the 1e counterpart to stuff like the Warblade (i.e., alternate core classes).

The only real difference that I perceive in regard to the level of 'fantastic' between editons is that, as newer editions have been churned out, there have been more supplements devoted to introducing it after the fact. The default level of 'fantastic' in the core game still seems about on par with AD&D, to me.

 

[Desdichado]

Does this mean... sense of wonder is coming back?!

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'd say that the precise difference is that the martial classes now have more "fantastical" abilities. I'd also posit that this is necessary in order to keep them on par with spellcasters at mid- to high levels without having to give them specially-made artifacts.

Take the 1e fighter, for instance. Without magic items, all he was going to get at high levels was the ability to make 2 attacks per round. His M-U buddy would be slinging reverse gravity and delayed blast fireball spells while invisible and flying, turning henchmen into gold dragons, and summoning demon lords to stick them into minimus containment. Now, if that fighter were lucky enough to play through G1-3, he'd probably have an AC in the mid-negatives and the magical girdle/gauntlets hammer combo, enabling him to beat the crap out of huge ancient red dragons; pretty "fantastical," but about the equipment rather than the PC. Even with feats, skills, and so on, the same pretty much went for the 3.0 fighter vs his spellcasting counterparts, and was one reason why disjunction was such a disparately-affecting spell class-wise.

Personally, I prefer classes to be on a reasonably even keel without having to build magic item dependency into the mix. I will also say that D&D has backed itself into a corner regarding the need to power up fighters by allowing playable magic-using characters; most S&S wizard-types aren't really PCs. By creating PCs that use magic willy-nilly, you are, in a sense, forcing everyone to have at least partial access to magical resources.

 

[Dan Bell]

Pinotage,
As a fan of normal people doing extraordinary things, sounds like you might like reading the free Harn downloads at: www.lythia.com (btw-the setting is rules-independent).

Enjoy
Dan

 

[Felnar]

These days you have classes like the warblade, for example, that is much more fantastical. He's not a mere human anymore. He's a magical human, that can create fire with his manuevers or other 'magical' effects.

...

I suspect that 4e is going to go that way even more so. The average 'person' in the game will be able to likely utilise magic in some way, be it creating fire with his blade as a warblade, or healing supernaturally as a cleric.

How much experience do you have with the Bo9S? The Warblade does not have access to the Desert Wind school. The Crusader doesnt either. Do you feel that schools like Diamond Mind , Setting Sun, or White Raven are too fantastical?

As has been repeated ad infinitum on these boards, many of the Bo9S maneuvers are non-magical and I suspect that 4e fighters will draw from that spectrum rather than the magical abilities of a swordsage.

I bet the Bo9S would be received much better it was only the "Book of Seven Swords" (no Desert Wind or Shadow Hand), or if a school like Diamond Mind or Iron Heart was presented as the first school.

 

[MerricB]

These days you have classes like the warblade, for example, that is much more fantastical. He's not a mere human anymore. He's a magical human, that can create fire with his manuevers or other 'magical' effects.

You must be reading a different book than me. The warblade can't create fire. His effects are almost all entirely mundane in source... what makes the warblade is that he's better at these mundane tasks than normal men.

It's like a fighter with Great Cleave or Rapid Shot. Those abilities may look "magical" to the untrained eye, but they're just the effect of great skill. Like being able to break boards with your bare hands.

I think 4e will be more fantastical in that sense: the heroes can do things that most mortal men can't do, but I don't think they'll be more "magical" - although most PCs will have magical powers because we're playing in a fantasy world with magic, after all!

Cheers!

 

[Pinotage]

Pinotage,
As a fan of normal people doing extraordinary things, sounds like you might like reading the free Harn downloads at: www.lythia.com (btw-the setting is rules-independent).

Enjoy
Dan

I'll take a look! Thanks!

Pinotage

 

[Pinotage]

How much experience do you have with the Bo9S? The Warblade does not have access to the Desert Wind school. The Crusader doesnt either. Do you feel that schools like Diamond Mind , Setting Sun, or White Raven are too fantastical?

Not too familiar. But then the swordsage is also a human without access to spells that can do supernatural things through Desert Wind. Thanks for pointing out my mistake, though.

Pinotage

 

[Mad Mac]

I wouldn't say the 1st edition fighter was a normal human. He may not have had any special abilities, but he was far, far, stronger than most of his later edition counterparts once he reached mid to high levels. A well equipped 1E Fighter was almost invincible in melee past level 10 or so, as I recall, simply because there were no really strong melee monsters past that point. Demons? Ancient Red Dragons? Giants? Pfft.

I mean, sure, he didn't have any special attacks like "Raining Badger Assault" or "Eviscerating Groin Gash", but he was still a guy who was capable of mushing a huge dragon into paste in a couple of rounds. Nothing normal about that. And he was still about the weakest class, with high-level Wizards being demi-gods, and every other class except Thief having some level of magical ability.

So I'm going to say 1st edition was just as fantastical, but in a more abstract sort of way. I'll conceed that the level of abstraction might have made it easier for some people to imagine their fighter was crushing massive monsters in a very realistic and mundane sort of way, though. I know that wasn't true for me--when I was a kid, I was letting my imagination run wild.

 

[SavageRobby]

I wouldn't say the 1st edition fighter was a normal human. He may not have had any special abilities, but he was far, far, stronger than most of his later edition counterparts once he reached mid to high levels. A well equipped 1E Fighter was almost invincible in melee past level 10 or so, as I recall, simply because there were no really strong melee monsters past that point. Demons? Ancient Red Dragons? Giants? Pfft.

I don't agree at all with that assessment. Lets take the dragon. On average, prior to a Con bonus (if any), a 10th level 1e Fighter would have 53 HP or so (with a 16 CON, that'd be 71 HP). With a super generous DM, he might actually 60-70 HP (or 80-90 with a high CON). That 10th level Fighter would get walloped by an Ancient Red Dragon in a handful of rounds, assuming he even made his initial save vs. that 88 HP Breath Weapon - and assuming the dragon didn't have spells. Lets say the fighter has some kind of fire immunity (rare back then, but we'll say it for arguments sake), and the Dragon can't fly and is reduced to melee alone. The dragon's bite alone does 3-30 damage.



1e classes as individuals were never terribly impressive or fantastic, even at mid/higher levels, as individuals. A Magic-user, despite the massive energies they could unleash, still needed time to cast their spells. Thieves needed to backstab. Clerics needed folks to heal. Fighters needed artillery. It is as a group that 1e characters really shine; they need that dynamic. Numbers matter in 1e (one of the reasons for the proliferation of henchmen and hirelings).