Is D&D combat meant to be heroic?

[kolikeos]

Disarming, triping, bullrushing, etc. are thing that an untrained character has difficulties accomplishing. To be a trained character you need to take the apropriate feat. With imp. disarm you can take your opponent's +lots magic sword and keep it (you must have a free hand, otherwise he'll just pick it up as you said), with imp. trip you can trip and attack a lower AC (he is now prone) and get an AoO as he gets up, with imp. bullrush you can force your opponent to where you want him to be (like the bottum of a deep pit)

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

The word you're looking for is "cinematic;" in a gaming context "heroic" is more often used to refer to code of conduct, realism level or even size of minitatures.

Anyway, D&D doesn't go out of its way to encourage cinematic combats and does in some ways discourage them. They're mostly good for rare, unusual circumstances, especially since they don't work on a lot of monsters. In those circumstances, though, they can really shine, especially with the appropriate feats.

If you want to push cinematic combat and your players aren't the type who just do it for the heck of it (most certainly aren't, IMX), you might want to look into a game that gives it more mechanical support. Iron Heroes (and to a lesser extent the D&D-compatible Book of Iron Might) does this if you want to stick to a d20-based game. Exalted, based on a crunchier version of the Storyteller system, is probably the most famously cinematic RPG and takes it a step further than Iron Heroes. At the farthest end of the scale lies Wushu, were cinematic description basically IS the only gameplay mechanic.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Au contraire. My villains monologue their butts off, and the PCs are about 21-22nd lvl. Mind you, they may be bobbing and weaving while it happens...

"You sly dog, you got me monologing!"

 

[Faraer]

I was looking over the combat rules for D&D 3.5 and it occured to me that combat isn't designed to be "heroic". Now I'm defining heroic in the sense of coolness, where my character can perform the type of actions and maneuvers found in a typical S&S movie or book.

I'd say that heroism is a dramatic phenomenon, and 'coolness' is antithetical to drama.

 

[Reynard]

I'd say that heroism is a dramatic phenomenon, and 'coolness' is antithetical to drama.

This underscores one of the difficulties not just with D&D, but all "heroic" adventure role-playing games: What is heroic?

Some people equate heroism with coolness, the ability to do things others could only dream of. Others equate heroic with overcoming adversity, with no more raw power than the average person. If you look at the traditional heroic sagas, it is actually both of these things: great heroes were both above and beyond mortals, yet they were also compelled to overcome great adversity to become heroes.

I believe that the coolness or power level of a character is irrelevent to their status as a hero. Perhaps it is too many years reading comic books, with Superman as my favorite character, but I thin heroism is relative to the difficulty -- not just physically, but moreally and psychologically as well -- of the task at hand.

As it pertains to D&D combat, it is a matter of overcoming challenges that might make lesser men give up and die. So you're third level and the DM pits you against a (young) dragon? You could run away, or you could find a way to defeat the monster and have your names forver remembered by the townfolk who you saved. That, I think, is the best part about RPGs, especially from a player's perspective: the ability to do great things, even if it is only at your table.

 

[Faraer]

To enlarge a little on that, 'coolness' is momentary and flashy and selfish and easy, whereas heroism is about courage and sacrifice. To be *visibly* heroic it helps a lot to be, say, good at fighting. In return, the collective imagination depicts heroes as tall, handsome, noble-born, and other stuff that might be thought 'cool'. But just 'cool', unearned, is seductive, life-wasting pap.

 

[Agamon]

I find it humorous to suggest that combat in D&D, wherein a skilled combatant can single-handedly dispatch dozens of lesser warriors in a single fight, isn't heroic.

Yeah, I read the title of this thread and thought, "Right, and is the sky blue?"

 

[Campbell]

Yeah, I read the title of this thread and thought, "Right, and is the sky blue?"

Whereas I would argue that D&D combat is not cinematic in the least. It may feature some fairly powerful effects, and higher level characters may indeed accomplish amazing feats on a regular basis, but they do so due to personal potency and sound tactical decisions, rather than the type of heroic luck and protagonist auras often seen in early 90's action movies,and super hero comic books. D&D combat is quick (in game time, if not always in real time), brutal, and tactical.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Whereas I would argue that D&D combat is not cinematic in the least.

I tend to agree, D&D combat core only RAW is not very cinematic, it's at about the opposite end of the spectrum from Exalted. Though considering newer additions such as the Bo9S things may be starting to change.

It may feature some fairly powerful effects, and higher level characters may indeed accomplish amazing feats on a regular basis, but they do so due to personal potency and sound tactical decisions, rather than the type of heroic luck and protagonist auras often seen in early 90's action movies,and super hero comic books.

Purely IMHO of course but I'm glad of this. Those are fiction rather than a game with players, what works in one doesn't necessarily work in the other. Besides I absolutely despise the "hero through plot device" so many works use now. Those who only overcome their enemies due to authorial fiat and plot necessity are not truly heroic because the core of heroism is being BETTER and using that to prevail and overcome even the most trying circumstances.

D&D combat is quick (in game time, if not always in real time), brutal, and tactical.

And I like it that way, though it could use some added fluidity in the combat mechanism if that can be managed without slowing down combat any further.

To get back to the main point. This was originally about the issue of whether magic items are necessary or not correct? edited oops thought this was magic item thread
*Balance-wise the game was designed with a certain level of expected magic effects available at each level, this was included when the designers weighed the overall balance.
*Removing magic items without providing another way to access the associated effects causes balance issues and requires more than a little work to get around.
*The question is what do you want to limit access to magic itself or just the items?

If the problem is the items themselves and their proliferation as well as the absurd amount of wealth by level that constantly increases you're not the only one. There are ways around it but they may seem even higher magic than normal. Mine follows
1.)Take the wealth by level chart then divide it by the gp/xp cost ratio for magic item crafting. You may have to play with the value slightly either way to achieve a curve that fits your campaign.
2.)This should give you a figure in XP by level. Add this to each level as bonus XP, you get it at each level up and it can only be spent on magical effects not leveling up, if you don't use it this bonus XP rolls up to the next level.
3.)All those magic items in the DMG, the ones that you're trying to get rid of, consider it a catalog of neat magical effects, they even have associated costs that either already give cost in XP or can be easily reverse engineered to cost in XP.
4.)To maintain balance let players buy the effects of magic items with their bonus XP which are applied to their characters as inherent effects or bonuses. In a way this is a lot like IH. Let's say the fighter buys several weapon properties. These properties now are applied to anything the pc uses as a weapon.

Whether its a sword, a mace, an oar, or their forehead. They can beat down an assailant with a flaming tankard of ale if that's what's at hand or use their teeth to do holy damage. Same thing with armor, or any other effect. Simply treat it as an inherent part of the character rather than gear by separating the effect from the item. The power level is the same, but now wealth by level is an option rather than a necessity. On top of this it means the only truly magic items left are temporary expendable magic items(such as wands and potions, etc. maybe not even these) and legacy items. No more need to frequently drop magic items suited to the party as their level increases.

 

[Imaro]

To enlarge a little on that, 'coolness' is momentary and flashy and selfish and easy, whereas heroism is about courage and sacrifice. To be *visibly* heroic it helps a lot to be, say, good at fighting. In return, the collective imagination depicts heroes as tall, handsome, noble-born, and other stuff that might be thought 'cool'. But just 'cool', unearned, is seductive, life-wasting pap.

Hey guys been away for awhile but now I'm baaaack.

I don't agree here with this definition of coolness.(I will admit now that "heroic" may not have been the right word to use for this thread) now back to what I was saying. Coolness has no effect on being heroic, except in how the heroic part is accomplished. Let's take the LotR movies. I think both Frodo and Aragorn are heroic, I don't however think they're both cool. Aragorn has a "coolness factor" about him(even when the Worg takes him over the cliff in the second movie and he crawls out of the lake half dead he's cool). Frodo and Sam seem more "bumbling" in many ways. Yes they are of just as stern stuff as Aragorn(especially by the last movie) but they are never as cool as him. I think coolness is the way in which a heroic act is approached and accomplished.

Jack Sparrow is cool
Nameless(from Hero) is cool
Han Solo is cool
Aragorn, Legolas are cool

Snarf is not cool
C3-PO is not cool
Frodo & Sam ae not cool

but all of the above are heroic in their own way.

I feel the problem is that it is really hard to be both cool and effective in D&D. Most combats are tactical affairs where trying to look cool can get you killed or messed up pretty bad. Thus often times it's easier to go with the safe bet than the "cool" option.