Is DM fiat okay?

Is DM fiat ok?

  • Yes

    Votes: 270 89.4%
  • No

    Votes: 32 10.6%

What I have gathered from this thread, Monte's most recent article in Dungeon, the DMG, DMG2, what I've seen of Dungeon Master for Dummies, and the host of articles on DM'ing I've read over the years is this:

Running D&D is about the art of using DM power responsibly, consistently, and fairly, i.e., always making sure that the players have a choice. So, to back away from the side-trek I took us on earlier: Yes, fiat is part of D&D. Especially outside of combat, the game can't move forward without it.

So, what makes a DM "good" or "bad" is their understanding and application of the above, and the players' reaction towards it. Ergo, D&D is very dependent, IMO, on the people at the table.

As I've seen many times IRL and online, peoples' conception of "what D&D is" or "how D&D works" will vary wildly depending on that mix of people. My point about Burning Wheel and similar games was how that variance is often diminished in games with more focused, less-fiat-dependent systems.

I've found that I enjoy D&D the most when the DM is sticking pretty closely to the rules as-written, and using their power of fiat to enhance the core game D&D describes: fighting and looting in interesting locales. The further a group deviates from this core game, especially when the rules start taking a back seat to DM fiat, the more I find myself feeling unsatisfied.

(This is why I really like finding rules add-ons that flesh out some of the non-combat stuff, like Dynasties & Demagogues debate rules, or Affiliations from PHB2, and so on. Ditto actually making use of social skills like Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, etc. These make me feel a lot more comfortable when the game strays away from the battlemat.)
 

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Hussar said:
RFisher, instead of "dispassionate", perhaps, disengaged?
I would humbly suggest "impartial" as perhaps a better term - it gives more of a feeling of an unbiased GM without the feeling that he doesn't care about the PCs.
 

buzz said:
Running D&D is about the art of using DM power responsibly, consistently, and fairly, i.e., always making sure that the players have a choice. So, to back away from the side-trek I took us on earlier: Yes, fiat is part of D&D. Especially outside of combat, the game can't move forward without it.

So, what makes a DM "good" or "bad" is their understanding and application of the above, and the players' reaction towards it. Ergo, D&D is very dependent, IMO, on the people at the table.

Cool. That's a great insight.
 

Hussar said:
RFisher, instead of "dispassionate", perhaps, disengaged?

In other words, the DM has no actual stake in whether or not the player succeeds. A good DM will actually take player intent into account when looking at task resolution and play to that intent.

Thurbane said:
I would humbly suggest "impartial" as perhaps a better term - it gives more of a feeling of an unbiased GM without the feeling that he doesn't care about the PCs.

Yeah. That's what the DM perhaps should be. But I don't think that really reflects the way I DM. I don't always feel impartial, though which side I'm rooting for may change from round to round. Though it's rare that I actually fudge dice rolls or such one way or the other. When it comes to ruling on things beyond the rules, I first consider what I think should happen based on the "laws of fantastic nature" of the milieu, but then I also think for a second about what is more fun & what makes a better story. & I'm not sure that any of that is so much counter to the spirit of the game.

That's what makes it hard for me to just say "dispassionate", "disengaged", "impartial", or "unbiased".
 

In the past year or so, I've become extremely allergic to fudging die rolls. I can honestly say that I haven't to my recollection, fudged any rolls, good or bad, in quite some time. I've found that the stories that come out of that are much, much better.

Also much, much more lethal. :)
 

DM fiat is fine. A good DM uses it well. A bad DM is a bad DM, with or without it.

That doesn't mean DMs should feel free to run roughshod over players, but done well DM fiat can save time and get to the interesting stuff. In my experience it's best used for minor things, and thenr arely something important. For example, in a game I played the DM told me my wizard was getting captured, because that night's adventure was largely about rescuing my character. I was warned in advance, and got to ham up get captured and screaming at my friends to get their behinds in gear and rescue me! The DM knew me well enough to know I was going to be okay with it, and rewarded my acceptance with a drama/action point kind of mechanic.

Especially when a group knows the play styles involved well, a good DM fiat can be a great addition to the group's toolkit for having fun.
 

FYI, this thread spawned a really interesting thread on Fiat over on Story Games. Ace RPG genius Mike Holes said some particularly cool things.

Mike Homes on Story Games said:
Marco points out the important thing, which is that, once again, we have this undefined term. So we have two choices, either we can define it for purposes of discussion, or we can look at all the myriad things that people use the term for.

Bowing to local pressure here not to make up Jargon, let's look at the uses. I think those have been covered generally by saying it's GM authority to create used when the rules do not constrain him. That takes several sub-forms, listed above. The use is, I agree with Marco, often meant to be negative, because otherwise people don't pay attention to it - GM authority is just an accepted part of RPGs (along with player authority where it exists). So, sure, you can say that any GM use of Authority is Fiat, but that only equates the two.

Which is not to say that people don't use the term in a way that means something non-problematic. Simply that it's a common use that makes it a subset of authority when it's used in this negative fashion.

It seems to me that the important thing to do, as I tried above, is to ignore these definitions, and to look at the underlying phenomena. And that basic split has been caught above - either the GM is using his authority in a way that's acceptable, or he isn't (the proposed Discretion/Fiat split).

If he's using it acceptably, then this is just "what GMs do" or authority, to use the Forge Jargon for it. This is non-problematic, and I don't think it's worth worrying about.

If it's being used unacceptably, now we have something to discuss, because now we can look at the reasons why it's not acceptable. I somewhat agree that it's related to "railroading" under two conditions. First, as I've said previously, that's an ill defined term under most circumstances. But if we define railroading locally and broadly as taking away player ability to add to the game creatively, then this is, indeed, pretty clearly one of the big problems with "Fiat" taken in it's negative connotation. Marco is correctly identifying it in this role above.

But I'd also posit that this is not the only case where negative use of authority can occur. For example, a GM can use his authority to make a player - not the character, but the player - look bad. To use the instantly classice Rhino's on Ice example, the GM might say, "Ah, too bad, the river is frozen solid to the bottom. The rhinos charge you unabated. That was a silly plan." Yes, actually by the Big Model, this means that the player is also being denied the ability to be creative, but that's a subset of the social level problem that's going on in this case.

But I think that the larger problem is when the GM overextends his authority beyond the expected limits. As has been stated above, when the GM voids rules that the players want upheld. I think we can all agree that this is a violation of the social contract that agrees as to what the rules of play are. Technically a form of cheating (if that can be applied to non-competitive situations). This is non-controversial, everyone agrees this is bad.

The "hazy" area here is when the rules explicitly give the GM the authority to change the rules. Seen most typically in the "Golden Rule" stated something like, "If the GM thinks the rules aren't working, discard them, and rule by fiat." Now, in theory, a GM can improve the game by voiding the rules if/when they don't work. The problem with this is that, in fact, the games that have this "meta-rule" (if you will), rarely, if ever, give any but the most vague guidance on using it. Meaning that, as said above as well, players may not have a good idea of when the rules will be voided, or why. Essentially, if the GM does this quite a bit, then the player's understanding of the rules will be that "It's all GM fiat." Even if the rules are followed in, say 80% of situations that seem to demand them, 20% voidance puts enough uncertainty into the picture that players cannot rely on the rules, and will, instead, be trying to determine what the GM will do with their input.

Now, even this can be functional - after all, "Freeform" play is, in fact, all GM authority being used sans guidelines, all the time. But the point is that this is only good if the players want a freeform game, or something akin to it. The trouble is that the game presents all of these rules as though they're good for play, but then the feeling is that they're not really being used.

I'm speaking from experience here, experience with Storyteller System, in fact. Where I, at times, would wonder why I even had a character sheet. In part because of the railroading, but also because the rules would be tossed out or ignored quite frequently. And the Storyteller, when I questioned him about it, would point to the Golden Rule.

There might be some rate at which one can feel that small, judicious uses of the Golden Rule aren't making all of the other rules moot. But for me, and for many others, I suspect, even small amounts of use seem detrimental to the agreement to play by some set of rules. In fact, I prefer playing freeform than to pretending to be using a set of rules, when in fact we're playing by "GM Fiat."

To be clear, what the golden rule does is make all rules like this:

1. Roll to hit (unless the GM thinks that he knows better, and just decides what happens).
2. Roll for damage (unless the GM just decides what happens).
3. Apply damage (unless the GM just decides what happens).

Even if the GM doesn't decide this, if he has unlimited power to do so, and does it even once, it all feels like freeform. The rules cease to be concretely informative of play.

In Universalis, we realized that sometimes people will want to change the rules of a game. I'm not against that, contrary to what it might seem. To that extent, we put in a rule that limits how the player can change the rules in terms of currency, and put in a method for the players to discuss the change, and impose their own wills about it. This throws the decision back to the social level of play, allowing everyone to ratify any changes made to the rules.

This is very different than not changing the rules, but temporarily voiding them whenever one likes. Its the difference between a paricipatory democracy, and a dictatorship. Sure there were laws in Stalinist Russia, but did Stalin have to follow them? OK, that's slanted. But even in the most enlightened dictatorship the rule of law is damaged by having somebody who can void it at will. To say nothing of the potential of power to corrupt.

Yes, RPGs aren't governments, and there are differences in how this applies. But I think that when people are talking about "GM Fiat" as a problem, they are often talking about this particular sort of problem.

That said, I'm sure there are other forms of abuse and misuse of authority that can occur. But I think that these are the most common.
 

In retrospect, I should've answered "Well, it depends on the GM in question." If your GM is a total bastard, no, GM fiat is not okay -- it will simply be another way for the GM in question to screw over players unduly. If your GM is a trustworthy sort who is as concerned with player satisfaction as he is with self satisfaction, yes -- GM fiat is perfectly acceptable.
 

jdrakeh said:
In retrospect, I should've answered "Well, it depends on the GM in question." If your GM is a total bastard, no, GM fiat is not okay -- it will simply be another way for the GM in question to screw over players unduly.

In that case, GM fiat is perfectly fine. It's your GM that's the problem. No limits on GM fiat are going to improve the situation.

(...which, I realize, may have been your point...)
 

Greetings…

You know, I wasn’t going to reply to this one, and I just read the thread wonder why everyone was replying to it.

Is there a problem with the DM Fiat? Isn’t that some sort of European car? But seriously… the fiat is unavoidable. GMing and gaming is not governed by committee, and nor should it. Certainly the storytelling is subject to committee input of all the players and the GM. But ultimately, it comes down to the fact that the GM has to be final arbiter of the game. Just like Rodrigo Intalindir said, the fiat doesn’t imply arbitrary judgment or capriciousness, and if you find yourself in a game that has such things, then I suggest you get out before it becomes a problem.

No game should be held together by the DM Fiat. If you have to resort to using it, then something is wrong. Mostly I see it as a lack of vision and/or communication with the players. If, as a GM, cannot convey the vision and the necessity that required the GM to go outside the Rules as Written (RAW) I know someone out there is probably going ‘what the heck is RAW?’, and there is some sort of conflict with the players over it. Then of course, you have a problem.

One of my GMs was constantly going outside of the RAW. Why? Well, mostly because I thought that he didn’t know the rules well enough. He was just ruling situations because he didn’t know or couldn’t remember the rules in the book. Which of course lead to a lot of assumptions on the part of the players (and myself being one of them) that we were expecting to happen; which of course didn’t because the GM had changed the rules on it.

This problem was of course resolved through communication. Both with having the players and the GM compromise in most situations. Simply because the GM wasn’t changing the rules arbitrarily, but because he wasn’t aware, or couldn’t recall some sort of official rule in the book. With just what Shroomy said, the players should be informed of any and all deviations. Because, how can you play a game when you don’t know what the rules are?

”God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of his own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players [i.e., everybody], to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time.”

Would I allow a GM to ‘hide behind rule 0’? Well, I don’t think I’d call it hiding. But when I (or anyone) can trust the GM to be fair and honest and forthright, and be able to run the game without regards or the crutch of the rules, then that can occasionally lead to something quite magical; a game where people don’t think about the rules, and just play.

Saying that the players have the final word because they can always ‘walk’ is rather like a BDSM session with a bad top. Yeah, sure… you can always call the safe-word, and get out of the ‘play’. But it’s a bad session when you have to resort to that. Do you really want to be in a game where it has to result in players leaving the table? Do things need to fall apart that much? – In a philosophical sense, yes… the bottom has all the control, and the players have the final say. But it’s a poor game when the players have to exercise that control.
 

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