Is Dual Spells Feat balanced?

[James McMurray]

Sure, at high levels it can seem powerful but so can all the epic feats.

But that comparison doesn't really hold, since this is not an epic feat, and it will be powerful long before you can even get epic feats (at 10th level you'll be able to ast both haste and displacement as another poster mentioned).

 

[Crothian]

But since it does allow casters to go through spells faster, they will run out faster. In a combat heavy session, were the buffs don't last combat to combat, this feat will more then likely encourage the caster to waste spells fast. It also opens him up to a dispel magic to cancel the buffs. I see this as a strong feat but not over powerful. Sure it can be abused, but I'm not worried about it being abused. There are actually players out there that don't do that.

 

[James McMurray]

That was the same balance argument given to 3.0 haste. It didn't work then, so why would it work now?

 

[James McMurray]

Sure it can be abused, but I'm not worried about it being abused. There are actually players out there that don't do that.

Then why ask if its too strong if you've already made up your mind?

Heck, a feat that allows someone to utterly destroy an entire city once per day, no save, no SR is't too powerful if the players aren't going to abuse it.

 

[Crothian]

Then why ask if its too strong if you've already made up your mind?

There is a difference with something being out lawed because it can be abused, and something being out lawed because its simply to strong. Many people on these boards point out things that are wrong with the game by utterly abusing it in ways that never seem to happen in games. That's fine, but I'm more concerned with how it will work in an actual game.

 

[mroberon1972]

There is a difference with something being out lawed because it can be abused, and something being out lawed because its simply to strong. Many people on these boards point out things that are wrong with the game by utterly abusing it in ways that never seem to happen in games. That's fine, but I'm more concerned with how it will work in an actual game.

Then reset assured: It is not only too powerful, it also does not follow the rules format of meta-magic feats. While that is fine (I have no problems with breaking the sacred molds), when combined with some spells, this is just way too powerful.

Also, some spells have rules basing it's effect off of a minimum caster level. What happens when suddenly the spell is below a level it can normally be cast at?

In addition, some spells do not take into account the caster's level for the effect. What about limited wish? You have a power that has a 'non-limitation' in many cases. You can be sure they will use it that way at some point.

Finally, meta-magic feats must be prepared in advance for a wizard or cleric. This did not say it did. This is an 'on the fly' ability, and even more powerful due to it.

How about a limit that the combined spells must be prepared at a spell level equal to the combined level of the spells plus something. I really have no problem with a 20th level wizard doing 20d6 damage with a combined fireball as a high level (what, 7th? 8th?) spell.

How about the levels of the spells to be combined plus the total nuber of spells? That would mean a 20th level caster could combine 4 magic missle spells into an 8th level spell (1+1+1+1+4=8). He would also be able to cast a fireball, magic missle, and acid arrow spell as a 9th level spell (3+1+2+3=9).

I guess targeting could be a seperate targets or one target. I also see no problem with allowing each effect to go off in the order the caster likes, for special cases such as dispel-magic/fireball double hitters.

Anyone like this better?

Mr Oberon

 

[jgsugden]

Try it out in some mock battles. Put a sample 10th level party together - a fighter, a rogue, a cleric and a wizard. Make the wizard twice: once with this feat and once without. Then run them through 4 mock combats without resting in between combats. You'll see how effective this feat would be very quickly.

This feat allows the cramming of resources. You get to use more actions in a round than normal. Even if these can't be your most powerful actions, they are still multiple actions. And two lesser actions can be as strong as or greater than the effect of one more powerful action. It is the reason 3.0 haste was removed. It is the reason that quicken spell, even though it raises an effective spell level by 4 levels, is so powerful. It is too strong.

 

[Crothian]

Also, some spells have rules basing it's effect off of a minimum caster level. What happens when suddenly the spell is below a level it can normally be cast at?

You can't cast it then. If a 10th level wizard uses this feat, he has to use it with a 0,1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell becasue those are what a 5th level caster can cast

In addition, some spells do not take into account the caster's level for the effect. What about limited wish? You have a power that has a 'non-limitation' in many cases. You can be sure they will use it that way at some point.

Well, limited wish is a 7th level spell. A wizard needs to be 13th level to cast it so casting it with this feat makes the Wizard at least 26th level.

Finally, meta-magic feats must be prepared in advance for a wizard or cleric. This did not say it did. This is an 'on the fly' ability, and even more powerful due to it.

Looking in the PHB none of the meta magic feats say they have to be prepared by a wizard or cleric. Meta magic feats do have to be prepared ahead of time for casters that prepare spells, this is not an exception.

 

[James McMurray]

Meta magic feats do have to be prepared ahead of time for casters that prepare spells, this is not an exception.

So if I want to Dual Spell a fly and an improved invisibility, what level slot does that take? 7th? a 3rd and a 4th? Something else?

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the feat. If the levels of the spells combine, then its akin to the Splice Spell feat I posted earlier and might not be completely broken.

 

[mroberon1972]

You can't cast it then. If a 10th level wizard uses this feat, he has to use it with a 0,1st, 2nd, or 3rd level spell becasue those are what a 5th level caster can cast



Well, limited wish is a 7th level spell. A wizard needs to be 13th level to cast it so casting it with this feat makes the Wizard at least 26th level.



Looking in the PHB none of the meta magic feats say they have to be prepared by a wizard or cleric. Meta magic feats do have to be prepared ahead of time for casters that prepare spells, this is not an exception.

Hmnnn... Time to reword the wording of the feat then. The Description only makes sense after you explain it.

Seems more balanced with that limit, but it's a moderatly complex limit. While that's not a bad thing, I try to avoid it for a simpler rule set.

One last thing, and I will cease attempting to bang it with my GM hammer: Your version does not increase the spell level due to increase power of the ability: as per the other Meta feats. You also missed again that there are spells with set effects instead of by level effects. Combine those with no limiters and you have a possibly messy situation. I don't have my books nearby, so I can't quote anything right now.

I have to say, you already seem adamant about this feat. If that's the case, then use it. If it does not pan out, advise the players you're pulling the feat. Just make sure they know about it when it is first offered.

Playtesting is the ONLY testing worth anything.

EDIT:

Whoops! Just saw a problem: A 20th level caster combining two fireballs would do full 10d6 damage with both combined, with NO real limits to thier ability, such as making the spells take a higher slot. I hearby banhammer this feat from my game until the next version is developed.

It's a fine idea, rebuild it some more and try again.


Mr. Oberon