Is Dual Spells Feat balanced?

[Trainz]

I'm sorry mroberon, I edited and changed my post 4 minutes before you submitted your reply...

...and RoE doesn't stack with itself...

...sorry...

 

[Scion]

One spell: Ray of enfeeblement.

A 12th level caster can cast it and reduce a critter's strength by 1d6+5.

With this feat: 2d6+6. For two first level spells. No save. If he uses 3rd level slots with an empower feat (which is within the parameters), that's (2d6+6)+50%, or from 12 to 29 strength, average 19 or 20 . In one round, your critter has -10 to hit and damage (-15 damage if he uses a two-hander)

Your post confuses me. Ray of enfeeblement does not stack with itself. If you cast it on the same creature twice in a row it will still only do d6+x or (d6+X)*1.5. If you feel that this spell is too powerful that is a beef for another thread

Some of us didnt have a problem with the old haste, keeping it strickly arcane was one of the few reasons left to even play a mage anyway. Nukeing the few spells that had durations longer than a few minutes and killing the ability to cast multiples of the now near useless buffs is just a horrible way to go.

There are a lot of feats out there that try to fix this. Quicken is the big one that people compare with and really it is about 2 levels too high in cost. ESPECIALLY with the new loss of the ability to cast more than one spell in a round usefully.

This feat does have a few problems, but really the main one is that it is near useless at higher levels. Yes, you read that correctly, near useless. Once you hit around level 12 or so about 50% of monsters have SR naturally and at least 25% of npcs (these are my guesses for a normal campaign, everyone I have been in has been 75%+ for monsters and 60%+ for npc's at this level). Any sr at all kills this caster for anything offensive. As for anything defensive most groups that like to live know when to toss down a dispel magic or two now and then. Spells cast with this are going to be taken out nearly all of the time by SR or dispelling. Plus you can only cast lower level stuff.

All in all I think this feat still needs a little work to fix up the parts that might be overpowered, but as it stands it definately isnt the end all and be all that people are making it out to be. It has some huge weaknesses, and they fall right into the areas that creatures already go to for protection.

 

[mroberon1972]

Your post confuses me. Ray of enfeeblement does not stack with itself. If you cast it on the same creature twice in a row it will still only do d6+x or (d6+X)*1.5. If you feel that this spell is too powerful that is a beef for another thread

Some of us didnt have a problem with the old haste, keeping it strickly arcane was one of the few reasons left to even play a mage anyway. Nukeing the few spells that had durations longer than a few minutes and killing the ability to cast multiples of the now near useless buffs is just a horrible way to go.

There are a lot of feats out there that try to fix this. Quicken is the big one that people compare with and really it is about 2 levels too high in cost. ESPECIALLY with the new loss of the ability to cast more than one spell in a round usefully.

This feat does have a few problems, but really the main one is that it is near useless at higher levels. Yes, you read that correctly, near useless. Once you hit around level 12 or so about 50% of monsters have SR naturally and at least 25% of npcs (these are my guesses for a normal campaign, everyone I have been in has been 75%+ for monsters and 60%+ for npc's at this level). Any sr at all kills this caster for anything offensive. As for anything defensive most groups that like to live know when to toss down a dispel magic or two now and then. Spells cast with this are going to be taken out nearly all of the time by SR or dispelling. Plus you can only cast lower level stuff.

All in all I think this feat still needs a little work to fix up the parts that might be overpowered, but as it stands it definately isnt the end all and be all that people are making it out to be. It has some huge weaknesses, and they fall right into the areas that creatures already go to for protection.

The man has a point.

Mr. Oberon

 

[the Jester]

Well, it's enervation that gives me the willies with this one.

I think it's too powerful and too easily exploited.

 

[Stalker0]

Interesting, I created a feat that did this exact same thing, posted it a while back, but it never got near this much attention

What most people told me, is that the problem with it, is the problem with many custom metamagic feats. All metamagic feats are supposed to incur some kind of cost, more than just the feat itself. And for some spells, this feat has no cost really. Sure at lower levels a magic missile will be hurt if you dual spell it. At higher, not so much. Even with SR, it will come up.

However, its definitely more balanced than the old haste, as the SR system at higher levels does help that. If you don’t feel your players to abuse it, I think its fine. In a regular game, though, I finally agreed with most others, its too strong.

 

[IndyPendant]

Hmm...I may be the only GM that actually *likes* the feat. : ) However, I have to agree that as written, it's too powerful. That doesn't mean you throw it away though; I offer you an alternative, with some clearer wording as well:

Dual Spell (Metamagic Feat)
You can cast two spells at once
Prerequisite: Any two Meta magic feats
Benefit: By taking a full-round action, you may cast two spells in the same round. Each spell must normally require only a single action to cast (including other metamagic enhancements). Each spell is cast at half your current caster level for all purposes, including spell effects, counter checks, and magic resistance. You must be able to cast the spell at half your caster level to use this ability with that spell. If either of the spells cast using this ability is countered on casting, then both are countered. Any applicable concentration checks must be rolled for both spells separately, and any failed roll causes both spells to fail. Determine counter, concentration, and other checks before either spell takes effect; after that, the caster determines which spell takes effect first. Sorcerors, bards, and similar casters do not need to take the extra time they are normally required to for metamagically-enhanced spells, when using this feat.

And, for those die-hards that may still claim this is too powerful, this *optional* condition (which, in my mind, then makes the feat too weak to bother with) can also be applied to the feat as well:

Casting Dual Spells requires the caster’s complete concentration; they always require very dramatic Verbal and Somatic components, and Concentration checks cannot be made when casting these spells to avoid disruption, attacks of opportunity, or any other penalty.

What do you think, if these modifications and clarifications were put in?

<i>Edit: Corrected a few typos, and added the Sorceror/Bard benefit.</i>

 

[Trainz]

I think it's better, especially with the no-concentration rule, but would sorcerors be allowed to use it ?

 

[jgsugden]

Another major problem: This feat builds upon something already in the game. WotC has already created a feat that allows multiple spells to be cast in the same round: quicken spell.

Going too far down one specialization in D&D tends to unbalance the game. It puts PCs at a range of power that is too strong for their level. A +2 to each ability score is not as useful as a +12 to one ability score. Being able to cast two spells in a round for six rounds is not as strong as being able to cast 7 spells in the first round and one spell per round for 5 rounds. Abilities need to be spread out instead of stacked upon each other.

This niche is filled. Adding more effects that overflow out of the niche is a mistake.

 

[Crothian]

Except Sorcerers cannot Quicked spells. That's why I'm looking into Dual Spell feat for a Sorcerer.

 

[jgsugden]

Except Sorcerers cannot Quicked spells. That's why I'm looking into Dual Spell feat for a Sorcerer.

Not being able to quicken a spell is a built in balance for a sorcerer. It is an intended aspect, according to old designers for 3.0. Having the flexibility to choose spells on a moment's notice is a great advantage. The inability to do quickened spells is a major balancing factor that keeps sorcerers balanced with wizards.

If you really want to be able to use 2 spells per round, I suggest the T&B feat arcane preparation and quicken spell. It has a high cost, but the resulting ability is balanced. You lose the flexibility of the sorcerer for the spells you quicken, but gain the extra spell per round with those spells - which has a lesser cost to the sorcerer because he has more spells per day than a wizard.

The arcane preparation feat, by itself, is useful. Being able to throw out an empowered fireball *and* move is a nice thing for a spellcaster, especially in areas with multiple barriers to line of effect (stalagmites, big creatures, etc ...) that must be avoided.