D&D 5E Is Dying really hard?

[James Gasik]

As I was posting in another thread, I realized that I had more to say about this mechanic. I've heard a lot of complaints about how death saves turn the game into "whack-a-mole". Player gets hit for a lot of damage, but not enough to instantly kill him (a very common event), starts dying, someone Healing Words him...lather, rinse, repeat.

But I haven't seen that happen as much. What I actually see happen goes more like this...

DM: Ok, so, the monster hits you for...27 piercing.
Player: Damn, that drops me.
Healbot: Ugh, I just healed you on my last turn!
DM: Ok Player, it's your turn. Make your first death save.
Player: Come on, natural 20! 19, figures. Well that was my turn.
DM: Ok, Healbot, you're up.
Healbot, thinking out loud: Ok, so if I heal you, you have to survive until your next turn before you can do anything...but if I heal the Barbarian...
Player: Hey! I'm dying here!
Healbot: I only have so many spell slots, and we need to win this fight or we're all dead. You know what, screw this, I'll Guiding Bolt the bad guy. Oh hey, nat 20, let's go 8d6 damage!
Player: can I get a heal now?
Healbot: Sorry, I'll throw Healing Word at the Barbarian, I bet he can kill the monster for sure now...

Some Time Later...

DM: Ok Player, it's your turn.
Player, watching videos on his phone: Huh? Oh, yeah, right, death save. Come on, 20...oh what the...I rolled a 1.
DM: Sorry Player, you're dead.
Player: Whatever, I'm out of here.

Is this not common? It may be "easy" to revive people, but what I keep seeing is that it's not possible to heal everyone, it's not always tactically viable to use spell slots to heal fallen instead of other options, and that even if you do heal them, the amount of healing received is so pitiful that chances are very good you get knocked back down. I also keep seeing players get knocked down right before their turns, when nobody has a chance to do anything so that they have a 90% chance of losing their turn, a 5% chance to die outright, and a 5% chance of actually being able to do something (though, at 1 hit point, they'll probably get knocked down again in short order)...A LOT. I don't know why that is, and again, if that's something that's rare at most people's tables, I'd like to know.

The short version of all this is, while I know "whack-a-mole" situations can happen, my anecdotal experience has been very different, and I'm curious how common that experience is. Sure, I've seen the "guy takes 47 damage, doesn't die, gets brought back up before his next turn, no loss of uptime" happen. But the "guy takes damage, doesn't die, suffers loss of uptime, and is at serious risk of actually dying" scenario has been, again, in my experience, a lot more common.

 

[Nevvur]

I'm not sure whether it's common or not, but I will speculate it's more common at lower levels than at higher levels. Healers have a lot more tricks up their sleeves later on, reducing the frequency of both whack-a-mole scenarios and KOd PC neglect. In the last campaign I ran, I tended to include more hard-deadly encounters than easy-medium, and while there were some KOs and other close calls, PC death didn't occur in the last 30ish sessions (basically level 3-8).

It's also been the case in most 5e games I've run/played in that more than one PC has healing abilities. I can't recall any combat scene where PC death could be pinned on a single healer's tactical decisions.

(edit: non-healers can also make a medicine check to stabilize, or autosucceed with a healing kit. Point being, preventing PC death is a group responsibility.)

 

[BookBarbarian]

Death is real harsh at low levels and trivial at high levels.

 

[Nebulous]

The massive damage death rule, it only applies PER attack right, so even if you get hit by 4 arrows for 80 points of damage, it has to be a single attack to outright kill you? Personally, I might houserule that for accumulated damage in one round, especially at higher levels where death by massive damage is nearly impossible.

 

[Stalker0]

The massive damage death rule, it only applies PER attack right, so even if you get hit by 4 arrows for 80 points of damage, it has to be a single attack to outright kill you? Personally, I might houserule that for accumulated damage in one round, especially at higher levels where death by massive damage is nearly impossible.

Funny enough, more attacks with small damage is actually much more deadly at higher levels than a single strong attack. Once your unconscious, whenever you take new damage you instantly take a failed death save. So 3 arrows hitting you doing 1 damage each will kill you outright....whilst a boulder doing 90 damage isn't so bad.

 

[Bitbrain]

Reply to OP.

Yes.
At the end of every combat encounter in the main DM's game, either someone is making death saving throws, or someone has to be revivified.

It may have something to do with the main DM for my group.

The first thing he tells anyone when he starts a new campaign, or a new player joins an ongoing campaign, is that he truly believes combat in 5e is only enjoyable if, at the end of the encounter, either someone is "hovering at death's door or else already inside and making comments on the furniture".


The secondary DM for my group is nowhere near as bloodthirsty, so we don't tend to be in as much danger of PC death in his campaign.
Provided of course, that your character doesn't go outside in the dead of winter . . .

 

[Tony Vargas]

I've heard a lot of complaints about how death saves turn the game into "whack-a-mole". ...
Healbot: I only have so many spell slots, and we need to win this fight or we're all dead. You know what, screw this, I'll Guiding Bolt the bad guy. Oh hey, nat 20, let's go 8d6 damage!
...
DM: Sorry Player, you're dead.
Player: Whatever, I'm out of here.

Is this not common? .

The latter isn't as common as it might have been in 3.x, but neither it not whack-a-mole is at all implausible..

... a more important question, since both those suck, is what's the third alternative, does it also suck, and if not how do we gravitate towards it ?

The obvious third alternative, btw, is traditional hp attrition - characters rarely getting knocked to 0 in a single combat, and retiring from the dungeon when they get too low...

...i believe folks complain that the combats balanced for that mode are 'too easy...'

 

[Nebulous]

Funny enough, more attacks with small damage is actually much more deadly at higher levels than a single strong attack. Once your unconscious, whenever you take new damage you instantly take a failed death save. So 3 arrows hitting you doing 1 damage each will kill you outright....whilst a boulder doing 90 damage isn't so bad.

That's true too. The problem that I have encountered many times in my group is this: PC goes down, monster is nearby and has the option to hit the downed PC again and force a death save or two. Players VEHEMENTLY argue that an intelligent enemy would not attack an unconscious foe, and would instead attack the other still standing PCs. Which is kind of true in a way, OTOH, if the monster doesn't make sure the character is dead, there's a very good chance she will be healed the next round or same round, pop back up like nothing happened and keep on fighting.

I'm not sure what a good solution to this is. Deliberately killing a PC through metagaming technique tends to not settle well and disrupts the fun.

 

[Rhenny]

That's true too. The problem that I have encountered many times in my group is this: PC goes down, monster is nearby and has the option to hit the downed PC again and force a death save or two. Players VEHEMENTLY argue that an intelligent enemy would not attack an unconscious foe, and would instead attack the other still standing PCs. Which is kind of true in a way, OTOH, if the monster doesn't make sure the character is dead, there's a very good chance she will be healed the next round or same round, pop back up like nothing happened and keep on fighting.

I'm not sure what a good solution to this is. Deliberately killing a PC through metagaming technique tends to not settle well and disrupts the fun.

A really intelligent foe that is cruel and vindictive, or prideful, would make sure that the unconscious foe was dead! Intelligent foes know that spells and potions can revive unconscious victims. They also know that sometimes (when a 20 is rolled for a death save) the victim can get up all on its own.

I think the sword swings both ways on this issue.

 

[James Gasik]

Hey if you want to call out your players for being massive hypocrites, institute death saves for monsters. ^-^