Is Ghostwalk any good?

[Daredevill]

Oh no! not Ironchef again.

Time to leave this thread alone. Ironchef's posts just irk me.

 

[Alzrius]

Frankly, I'm shocked WoTC would release a niche product like Ghostwalk; it should have been patently obvious from the start that it would appeal to such a narrow margin of the RPG market as to be negligible.

Darn right! To think that they'd imagine that PCs actually die in some campaigns! That very premise is obviously not going to apply to 95% of the D&D gamers out there.

It just doesn't make financial sense for WoTC to release something like this.

Because of course, we all have in-depth and ready knowledge to their finances, as well as projected estimates of how this will sell; no financial sense at all.

It screams "third party" publisher, if anyone were to ever release anything like this at all.

I totally agree. When are Monte Cook and Sean K. Reynolds going to realize that no one likes their products?!

If WoTC was going to do something marginal like this, I can think of dozens of ideas I'd rather see than Ghostwalk. I'd much rather see a WoTC Vampire book than Ghostwalk, for example.

Indeed. It's a little-known fact that most DMs tend to throw hordes of vampires at their gamers over and over and over again until all of them become vampires themselves. WotC sure tripped up by making a book about ghost PCs that can be the result of dying any old way.

More people would rather play vampires than ghosts, IMNSHO.

You do know best what all gamers want.

Or a low magic/gritty fantasy book.

Not like that accursed d20 Modern and the forthcoming Dragonlance Campaign Setting; damn things had magic oozing out the frickin' walls everywhere!

To look at it another way, which sells better for White Wolf? Vampire or Wraith? Werewolf or Wraith? Mage or Wraith?

If only WotC made their products just like White Wolf; not only would they learn something, but then a real comparrison could actually be made between their products!

No sane corporate executive would ever greenlight a project like Ghostwalk when the bottom line--not creativity for creativity's sake--is the way successful businesses are run.

WotC execs are notoriously insane. "Third Edition" indeed...wackos, all of them.

"Prestige" projects intended to "push the envelope" are one thing, but this is just lame. I'd love to see comparisons of sales figures between everything else WoTC has done for D&D 3e vs. Ghostwalk.

Got that right, there's no way this thing will ever outsell big products like the Hero Builder's Guidebook or Enemies & Allies.

Glad to see someone is unafraid to speak things the way they really are Iron_Chef.

 

[johnsemlak]

I'm not familiar with IMNSHO...what's that one?

I'm guessing that means In My Not So Humble Opinion

But I hadn't seen it either so I'm not sure.

 

[Alzrius]

Thanks John. That seems to fit.

 

[carpedavid]

To get back on topic...

I picked up Ghostwalk a couple of days ago, and just finished my first read through last night. My primary complaint is the odd organization of the material. You get lots of rules for certain activities, like posession, before you ever see mention of it as a power, or even see the mechanics for it. Additionally, I never got a complete sense of what a "ghost" character's properties were until I looked at the ghost template in the monster section.

Once you get past that, it's pretty neat.

It does, indeed, provide all the rules you need for playing ghostly PCs. As they explain, though, ghosts in Ghostwalk aren't the typical monster manual version of a ghost - they aren't malevolent entities powered by negative energy. In other words, they aren't undead.

Instead, they're defined to be the actual soul of a character that hasn't quite yet made it to the afterlife - they're spirits that belong on another plane, but are existing on the material plane. In other words, outsiders.

Here's where the book can come into conflict with existing campaigns. Most of the justification for having ghostly PCs of this type comes from the included cosmology and the associated method by which spirits enter the afterlife. If your campaign already has a cosmology (as mine does) and explanations for how the soul enters the afterlife (as mine does), you'll have to come up with your own justification for how ghostly PCs of this type can exist.

If you can create an explanation for your campaign setting, the rules for ghostly PCs are pretty compelling. Once you become a ghost, you advance in the eidolon (or optional eidolancer) class - which is where you develop your ghostly powers. The eidolon gives the fighter's BAB progression plus a Ghost feat every other level. There are lots of feats to choose from, and six (if I remember correctly) groupings of feats that focus on particular ghostly abilites, which allows for a decent level of customization.

Also included are rules for what happens when your ghost PC gets raised or resurrected (you get to convert those eidolon levels into normal class levels), what complusions your PC suffers as the result of being a ghost, the effect of your ghostly appearance on others, and so on.

The ghost rules take up a sizeable chunk of the book, while the rest is filled with campaign setting material, specifically the city of Manifest, and its role in ghostly activities. Remember the particular cosmology I mentioned before? This is where it really comes into play. Manifest is actually built over the portal to the afterlife. The actual portal. For the whole world.

Still with me? Being so close to the actual portal to the afterlife gives Manifest some unique properties. Ghosts are usually incorporeal (unless they're using magic or one of the included feats), but in Manifest, they're forced to become corporeal, or manifest - hence the name of the city. I haven't read through this section extensively, because I'm not planning on using it in my campaign.

What I have seen indicates to me that it's well developed enough for a DM to run, but leaves enough uncharted that a DM can make the city his own. Also included are a number of short adventures that take place in and around the city.

All-in-all, I'm glad I bought it.

 

[SpiderMonkey]

Speaking locally (as opposed to the message boards), I've heard nothing--NOTHING--but good about this book! What the firk?

First of all, it's not like NORMAL DnD! I wanted a FR/GH/DL knock off, but NOOOOOOO...they had to go and make something original! Who wants to play something different?

And who are these guys? Monte WHO? Sean WHAT? Where'd they find these guys? Did they even bother looking at these "designer's" resumes before they hired 'em on? Gimme a break!

In all seriousness, I don't plan on buying it simply because I've worked my butt off on a homebrew that won't fit with it...but I'm hoping one of my buddies decides to get off his lazy keyster and run it, because it sounds pretty awesome.

 

[Nightfall]

Someone is just going to have to knock me over the head with a skull-shaped mace then...cause I like Orcus! (And yes it's a separate obssesion. )

 

[Wolf72]

ah okay, I was wondering about this too. I guess it's DnD's version of Wraith.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Darn right! To think that they'd imagine that PCs actually die in some campaigns! That very premise is obviously not going to apply to 95% of the D&D gamers out there.

Most stay dead, or are raised. They don't go wandering around as ghosts, and certainly not as a long-term choice.

Because of course, we all have in-depth and ready knowledge to their finances, as well as projected estimates of how this will sell; no financial sense at all.

It's too offbeat to perform well from a marketing standpoint.

I totally agree. When are Monte Cook and Sean K. Reynolds going to realize that no one likes their products?!

That's not what I said at all. Both are talented writers, but creative types are notoriously bad at making business decisions, or even thinking from that perspective, not that there are not exceptions to this rule. However, creative types using other people's money (OPM) will very often strive to do something "creative" and "edgy" (translation: "financially risky") because they're not the ones who will foot the bill if it flops. OPM is a wonderful way to try out new ideas without endangering your own finances.

Indeed. It's a little-known fact that most DMs tend to throw hordes of vampires at their gamers over and over and over again until all of them become vampires themselves. WotC sure tripped up by making a book about ghost PCs that can be the result of dying any old way.

Actually, it's not that little-known of a fact. Most gamers will see a horde of vampires before they see a single ghost in any given campaign. Vampires are more popular as villains and easier to run than the somewhat confusing "mix and match" ghost template.

You do know best what all gamers want.

It's true!

Not like that accursed d20 Modern and the forthcoming Dragonlance Campaign Setting; damn things had magic oozing out the frickin' walls everywhere!

Dragonlance is extremely high fantasy, in my mind, and a completely undesirable setting for my games. I have zero interest in it. Others will, but not in the same numbers as the more generic and popular FR. Modern is well... Modern. It's not D&D.

If only WotC made their products just like White Wolf; not only would they learn something, but then a real comparrison could actually be made between their products!

If you'd stop trying to be flip for the sake of being flip, you'd see that this comparison is valid. Both Wraith and Ghostwalk are RPGs in which characters portray ghosts. Wraith does not sell as well as Vampire, Werewolf or most other WW "monster" games, so therefore ghosts are not as popular among gamers as a character choice.

WotC execs are notoriously insane. "Third Edition" indeed...wackos, all of them.

There you go, being flip again. WoTC executives were incredibly smart to commission the creation of 3e, and now 3.5e. 4e is only a few years away at this rate. Why? Because it's not about what's best for the game (half the 3.5e changes seem to tell us that, simply being so they can say it's "new and improved"), it's about what's best for WoTC corporate finances. It's unfortunate that corporations must make money to survive (just like the rest of us, lol), and strongarming the majority of customers to fork over $90 worth of new rule books every three years is a great way to keep the dough rolling in. WoTC has said that most of their money comes from core rules sales, so more core rules more often should equal more money for them, right?

Got that right, there's no way this thing will ever outsell big products like the Hero Builder's Guidebook or Enemies & Allies.

Sucky products that appeal to a narrower spectrum of the buying public (one player's only and one DM's only) may still outsell something like Ghostwalk, which, despite its high gloss good looks, is too strange for most gamers and will likely only be bought by mostly DMs and only a few players. Economics dictate that something with broad appeal to both player's and DM's alike will outsell anything that appeals to only one or the other.

Glad to see someone is unafraid to speak things the way they really are Iron_Chef.

I'm not afraid to call it as I see it, no matter how much some may choose to belittle me. Ghostwalk may (or may not) be wonderful and creative, but I fail to see how it will ever be a bestseller for WoTC. As a complete outsider, I predict it will do "okay" at best (by however WoTC defines that to be) and "poor" at worst (again by however WoTC defines that to be). I could be wrong, certainly, but more than likely, I am right, because everything I know (and my gut, always trust your gut instinct) tells me it will not be a bestseller.

Were I a WoTC executive, I would have played it safe (and sane) and greenlighted a project about playing vampires instead, but that's me, or possibly a book that talked about how to play undead and other D&D and movie monsters, just to be extra safe and ensure I'm appealing to as wide an audience as possible...

Any moron knows that vampires will outsell ghosts 9 times out of 10 in any media (book, movie, TV, comic book, RPG, etc.). Sometimes, things like RINGU or THE OTHERS pop up that defy the norm, and succeed wildly, but that is the movies, not RPGs. I doubt we'll see anything similar develop among gamers, and certainly not something that lasts.

 

[SneakyB]

Originally posted on Sean K. Reynold's Site
Although it was delayed, then canceled, WotC finally decided to print it (possibly because two d20 companies out there offered to buy it and that made WotC think it might sell a little bit) and now it's out.

I would put forth that WotC *may* have done exactly what Sean has suggested here. They were likely offered a sum for the rights to publish this and made the decision to go ahead and produce it rather than lose any *potential* revenue, no matter how small.

I don't think that anyone has ever claimed it would be a best-seller, and would also put forth that beyond the core rules, most of their products are "add-ons" that can be snapped into place if desired. Hardly best-seller thinking there.

As to the true topic of this thread, I would *strongly* recommend it to anyone who may find use for it or is looking for something unique to add into their campaign. The game that I run is set on the Forge (Oathbound), but I've already got a couple of locations in mind as to where I can drop the city of Manifest and integrate this into my game. I still need to put some more thought into it, but the potential entertainment factor alone makes it worth it.

I received this as a Father's Day gift from my wife and kids and have to say that it made my day. I've read through about half of it and it's got the wheels-a-turning. If you've got the extra cash, go for it!

Dan