Is Grab Useless?

[Insight]

Over the weekend, we ran into several uses of grab, and each time, we were left scratching our heads. Whereas grapple in 3E might have been a little too powerful, grab in 4E seems downright pointless.

The RAW leave a few areas of contention, such as:

1. Can the grabbed person make attacks against the grabber? Against other targets? What kind of attacks can he make (basic only, or full range of powers)? Do these provoke AOs from the grabber? From other people?

2. Can the grabber make attacks against the grabbed target? Against other targets? Pretty much as above...

I'd like to see clarifications on the above. In addition, I'd like to see an option to either pin the grabbed target and/or otherwise restrain the already grabbed target, and maybe an option to inflict ongoing damage (say equal to the grabber's STR mod) until the target escapes. Maybe this last part could be a feat.

Thoughts?

 

[keterys]

Grabbed immobilizes, so yes you can do all that stuff. It's primarily useful for preventing a creature from moving only and should only be used for those purposes.

It's particularly useful when obtained 'for free', like for chokers and owlbears.

 

[GoLu]

The followup power lets you move people, so it's okay for that. But I think the idea is that people who are good at grappling or shoving will have special powers that are far better.

 

[Cadfan]

Grab is useful in the same way that bull rush is useful. Bull rush makes someone move when they don't necessarily want to. Grab stops them from moving when they would like to do so.

 

[Insight]

I understand all that. My problem is that the issue of the AO isn't resolved. If you're grabbed, do you provoke when using an eligible power (a ranged attack, for example)? If so, from whom do you provoke? Let's say you're grabbed and you use a ranged attack, and theres an adjacent enemy. Does the grabber count as 'adjacent' for the purposes of the AO?

 

[ValhallaGH]

1. Yes. Yes. Any. If the attacks or powers would provoke, anyone who threatens the grabbee can make an Opportunity Attack (since unarmed attacks are improvised weapons, the grabber counts as threatening with those if nothing else).

2. Yes. Yes. Any. If the attacks or powers would provoke then anyone who threatens the grabber can make an Opportunity Attack (since unarmed attacks are improvised weapons, the grabbee counts as threatening with those if nothing else).

 

[ValhallaGH]

I need to improve my computer or my connection. Sorry for the double post.

 

[Gort]

My players have used grab to drag a powerful baddie out of a magic circle that was giving him 5 regeneration, +2 to all defenses, and a powerful guardian. Grab was very useful in this situation.

Grab's just there to stop people getting away. You could use it on skirmishers, rangers, or rogues to prevent them escaping a brute-squad beat-down.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

Grab by itself is not very useful; it's fairly easy to get out of (roll athletics vs fort, acrobatics vs reflex, or push/slide the grabber away -- this is a good use for Thunderwave) and has no effects beyond movement prevention. Grab becomes more useful if the grabber has powers that work vs grabbed victims, and/or is not attackable (for example, the wizard powers that grab are perfectly useful).

 

[theNater]

I understand all that. My problem is that the issue of the AO isn't resolved. If you're grabbed, do you provoke when using an eligible power (a ranged attack, for example)? If so, from whom do you provoke? Let's say you're grabbed and you use a ranged attack, and theres an adjacent enemy. Does the grabber count as 'adjacent' for the purposes of the AO?

The condition of grabbed or grabbing almost never interacts with opportunity attacks in any way. To determine whether character A may make an opportunity attack against character B while one of them is grabbed or grabbing, determine whether A would be able to make an opportunity attack against character B if no grabbing was going on. The answer is the same.

The one situation where they do interact is if the grabber is moving the grabbed. In that case, the grabber does not provoke opportunity attacks from the grabbed. Everything else functions as normal(the grabber, who is moving voluntarily, provokes opportunity attacks; the grabbed, who is being forced to move, does not).