Horwath
Legend
no mather, he intended to kill him so the punishment in those era stands.
D&D 5E Is he evil?
- Thread starter Makiavel
- Start date
no mather, he intended to kill him so the punishment in those era stands.
Actually, we don't know that. We know that the bouncer drew his sword, but we don't know whether it was supposed to be a deterrent or whether he was just trying to subdue/disarm the PC. We also don't know who drew first.
No, the medieval rules of combat make a distinction between killing people who are actively trying to kill you at the moment and killing people who have surrendered and thrown down their weapons. The latter is, in most cases, dishonorable at best.
And yet, if he were your typical, traditional feudal samurai, the act would likely be considered honorable. The peasant tavern worker dared draw a weapon on him. Being cut down where he knelt would be a fitting punishment. Again: background, culture, setting, mores, region. These are all factors.
AaronOfBarbaria
Adventurer
These kind of question are why I switched to interpreting alignment as explanation of motive, rather than trying to say each act is or isn't ok for a particular alignment.
It matters why a thing was done, not just that it was done, and that makes it a lot easier to see when something done was evil, or good, or lawful, or chaotic, or even none of the above (neutral).
And another thing: All you folks saying this character killed the bouncer "in cold blood" sound silly - the "heat" of a moment doesn't fade instantly, even if the person that got your blood hot in the first place does a quick change between attacking you with a deadly weapon and saying their sorry. It's not like the character took some time to cool off and then came back to kill the bouncer anyway. He killed him instead of taking time to cool off as the scenario was described.
It matters why a thing was done, not just that it was done, and that makes it a lot easier to see when something done was evil, or good, or lawful, or chaotic, or even none of the above (neutral).
And another thing: All you folks saying this character killed the bouncer "in cold blood" sound silly - the "heat" of a moment doesn't fade instantly, even if the person that got your blood hot in the first place does a quick change between attacking you with a deadly weapon and saying their sorry. It's not like the character took some time to cool off and then came back to kill the bouncer anyway. He killed him instead of taking time to cool off as the scenario was described.
I guess everyone saying that killing an unarmed defenseless person who is not currently a threat think the death penalty is evil. That's fine but just a difference in values between people.
This is one reason I don't like an alignment system. Wheat isn't good and evil is not an absolute between people. In a game the more important question is how do those around them view the act. Is the bouncer a local bully that kills for pleasure so the towns people will celebrate his death? Is the bouncer part of the local lord's group and he will declare the the act murder?
So I say focus on what the world around thinks without trying to decide if the act is evil.
This is one reason I don't like an alignment system. Wheat isn't good and evil is not an absolute between people. In a game the more important question is how do those around them view the act. Is the bouncer a local bully that kills for pleasure so the towns people will celebrate his death? Is the bouncer part of the local lord's group and he will declare the the act murder?
So I say focus on what the world around thinks without trying to decide if the act is evil.
abirdcall
(she/her)
The road to hell...
Mishihari Lord
First Post
In D&D, this is in the lawful/chaotic spectrum, and has nothing to do with good/evil.
Nope. D&D morality as presented by the alignment system and published books in general, is not the same as real life morality of any kind (at least that I'm acquainted with.) If someone's on team bad-guy then they're fair game.
AaronOfBarbaria
Adventurer
...doesn't work the same in D&D.
Assuming that you are meaning to evoke that saying, which regards people doing the "wrong" thing for the "right" reason still being "wrong" in the end. The only evidence needed is to see that D&D has now, and has always had, entire organizations that are Lawful Good in alignment and are doing "wrong" (actual genocide campaigns, in some cases) for the "right" reasons (No more orcs = life in our society involves less random death from raids), and yet are in no threat of their alignment sliding down the spectrum towards evil.
Because why they do what they do - which is racism and murder - matters.
G
Guest 6801718
Guest
Taken at face value and considering the OP's reaction to what was going on, this strikes me as an evil act. As to whether or not the PC is evil, I don't know. I only have one snapshot of an incident and not any long term familiarity with that PC. Considering how the OP took it, it sounds like this was something out of character and a little off. So I don't think the PC goes around killing anyone with steel in their hands "just in case".
Since the whole thing was kind of glossed over and the game moved on, I'm guessing this really wasn't a big deal for the group (DM included). We don't know what kind of game the DM is running. Is it black and white, where the PC's are the heroes and anyone who opposes them or seeks to do them harm is evil? Is it a game that explores the moral complexities of the adventuring life, with shades of gray and tough moral decisions? It's entirely possible that the bar fight was just a fun spin on a combat encounter and not intended to have any consequences. Just an unusual fight and whatever happens, happens. Or it could be part of an ongoing narrative where the adventures explore the ideas of unchecked adventurer power and the impact on a community when one of their own dies. So I don't know what kind of game this is. Is it adventure and fighting with this being just another obstacle the party has to overcome? Is it part of a story that explores character psychology and has longer lasting consequences for everything the group does? Basically, what kind of game is it? Is this the kind of story where we don't care that Batman technically is committing assault and breaking and entering when he fights crime or is Batman wanted by the police for going too far? I've read both and they can both be good, but they have very different goals with their stories.
So really, what kind of game is the OP looking for? What does the group enjoy? If this is something that could lead to interesting future consequences and possible soul searching for the PC and they want that kind of game, run with it and say he did something evil. If people just want to get the party together and go raid some goblins and find cool treasure, don't worry about it. Without knowing your group and what you look for when you play, I can't really say if the PC is evil or even if it matters.
Since the whole thing was kind of glossed over and the game moved on, I'm guessing this really wasn't a big deal for the group (DM included). We don't know what kind of game the DM is running. Is it black and white, where the PC's are the heroes and anyone who opposes them or seeks to do them harm is evil? Is it a game that explores the moral complexities of the adventuring life, with shades of gray and tough moral decisions? It's entirely possible that the bar fight was just a fun spin on a combat encounter and not intended to have any consequences. Just an unusual fight and whatever happens, happens. Or it could be part of an ongoing narrative where the adventures explore the ideas of unchecked adventurer power and the impact on a community when one of their own dies. So I don't know what kind of game this is. Is it adventure and fighting with this being just another obstacle the party has to overcome? Is it part of a story that explores character psychology and has longer lasting consequences for everything the group does? Basically, what kind of game is it? Is this the kind of story where we don't care that Batman technically is committing assault and breaking and entering when he fights crime or is Batman wanted by the police for going too far? I've read both and they can both be good, but they have very different goals with their stories.
So really, what kind of game is the OP looking for? What does the group enjoy? If this is something that could lead to interesting future consequences and possible soul searching for the PC and they want that kind of game, run with it and say he did something evil. If people just want to get the party together and go raid some goblins and find cool treasure, don't worry about it. Without knowing your group and what you look for when you play, I can't really say if the PC is evil or even if it matters.
Helldritch
Hero
Yes, it was an evil act.
As for the rest of the possible consequences: guilt, bad dreams, family revenge, law enforcement trying to get hold of the criminal etc.. it is entirely up to you.
In my campaing, that character would be branded as evil. Atonement would be required (if he is not executed) and the other party members would be considered guilty by association until some form of detect lie/divination had been performed by a cleric with a good standing with his god(s).
On the other hand. He and his accomplices would be actively sought by evil forces for enlistment. They might even arrange the party to be captured only to rescue the party just to enlist them to work for (input whatever evil deity, monster, organisation you want in here.)
These kind of actions can lead to good drama. How did Soth fell so low? And Arthas? And Strahd?
As for the rest of the possible consequences: guilt, bad dreams, family revenge, law enforcement trying to get hold of the criminal etc.. it is entirely up to you.
In my campaing, that character would be branded as evil. Atonement would be required (if he is not executed) and the other party members would be considered guilty by association until some form of detect lie/divination had been performed by a cleric with a good standing with his god(s).
On the other hand. He and his accomplices would be actively sought by evil forces for enlistment. They might even arrange the party to be captured only to rescue the party just to enlist them to work for (input whatever evil deity, monster, organisation you want in here.)
These kind of actions can lead to good drama. How did Soth fell so low? And Arthas? And Strahd?
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