Is Iron Heroes Dead

[Aus_Snow]

Well, I don't know about anyone else's comments, but when *I* (essentially) said that Mr. Mearls left Iron Heroes in an unfinished (i.e., rush job) state - as stated by the man in question, among others - to head off for WotC-land posthaste, I wasn't referring to it being an incomplete game, per se. I was fully aware that it was an alternate PHB, as opposed to core set. I'm not even sure where that one came from initially. But anyway. . .

Since I'm responding to stuff in general:

This thread demonstrates what is wrong with IH.

People actually don't play the game, or of ways to play the game and enjoy it, but prefer to ramble on and on about how "unfinished" it was, to talk about the mechanics and not the game, and get caught up about details rather than the awesomeness of the big picture.

Again, can't speak for the other posters here, but as a matter of fact, I have played this game. Ran it, anyhow. Gave it a fair go, and it was found wanting.

Admittedly, this was *partly* a matter of taste, but it was also - and this was immediately noticeable to all concerned - in large part to do with the system's clunkiness, and the overall impression that was given, of 'not quite done'.

And frankly, the mechanics are the game. Sure, the writing matters quite a bit, sometimes. And presentation doesn't hurt (the good stuff, I mean.) But basically, when I buy a game of any sort, I'm wanting rules, guidelines, and possibly advice. Anything else is icing, at best.

 

[Capellan]

Dead? No.

Resting for a while? Yes.

I've had some significant other priorities in my life for the past 18 months or so. And since for better or worse, I currently "am" Iron Heroes, that means the last new thing that came out was "Bloodwood" in April '08.

My life is starting to settle down again (and in a very nice way, thanks for asking), so I should have more time to spare for IH in the near future.

 

[Voadam]

My biggest problem with his work on IH is that it doesn't accomplish what I think it was implied it was setting out to accomplish. The IH product wasn't marketed on how well it would play from 1st-5th level, but on how well it would play from 10th level on. What I think most people wanted from the product could be summed up as 'grim-n-gritty low magic and speedy play at high level'. IH never felt like it could deliver.

I think IH is a great game from 1st-5th level. At low levels of play it looks like it could be alot of fun. I very much got the feeling that the product was offered up having never been play tested beyond 3rd or 5th level or so.

I very much got the impression that Mearls found ''grim-n-gritty low magic and speedy play at high level' to be a very hard task to achieve, and that he in effect cheated by taking magical abilities and putting a thin cosmetic of mundaneness on top of them. Painted up high magic play posing as low magic play is just not what I wanted. I can do wuxia just fine with standard D&D.

Huh, I never got the impression it was designed for grim and gritty or even that speeding up higher level play were the design goals.

I thought it was high powered high fantasy, low magic warrior based D&D. I thought the design goal was to make warrior types powerful enough to stand without spells and items and as mechanically intricate as D&D spellcasters with their own warrior powers and resource management mechanics.

I didn't read all the design diaries and such but I thought the advertising/marketing was clear that it was high wuxia for D&D warrior types in the style of Crouching Dragon.

If you were not interested in D&D wuxia and looking for grim and gritty I can see your disappointment.

My disappointment was I did not want the increased resource management.

 

[Voadam]

My life is starting to settle down again (and in a very nice way, thanks for asking),

Good to hear.

 

[Nellisir]

I've sold close to a thousand different role-playing titles over the years, and own hundreds of those myself. I've come to know a variety of writers to a greater or lesser degree, and I contend that my assertion about Mearls, that he puts most of his effort into the easy part, filling the word count, for which he is paid, and puts minimal effort into editing, testing, revising, and so on, is a reasonable characterization of his work. He is very clever fellow, and has a lot of great ideas, but I'd not count on him for finished work.

Clearly, mileage may vary. I have a hard time thinking of bigger waste of my money than Ptolus -- or would, if I'd bought it. I homebrew my campaigns, and a big fat book of gooey campaign fluff is near to useless. Plus, I'm not fond of Monte's approach to the OGL. Mearls, on the other hand, is clearly a mechanics guy. There's a reason WotC hired him as a developer, not a designer. If his work is unedited, well...that's where the editor is supposed to come in. At least Mearls has ideas. There are more than few freelancers out there who couldn't outthink a paper bag.

I think it's a little odd to complain that someone does their job, particularly when the complaint is so vitriolic. As you said, he does that for which he gets paid.

 

[Nellisir]

I thought it was high powered high fantasy, low magic warrior based D&D. I thought the design goal was to make warrior types powerful enough to stand without spells and items and as mechanically intricate as D&D spellcasters with their own warrior powers and resource management mechanics.

I didn't read all the design diaries and such but I thought the advertising/marketing was clear that it was high wuxia for D&D warrior types in the style of Crouching Dragon.

If you were not interested in D&D wuxia and looking for grim and gritty I can see your disappointment.

My disappointment was I did not want the increased resource management.

Ditto on all points.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

here's a reason WotC hired him as a developer, not a designer. If his work is unedited, well...that's where the editor is supposed to come

I think you mean it the other way around.

IIRC, "designer" is the guy coming up with the general ideas and concepts of the rules, the developers refine it. Ultimately, I don't think that Mearls wouldn't have been able to do that refinement, too - but he got a new job.

Aside from the Arcanist, I do not think Iron Heroes was much more flawed than other d20 games. Possibly including 3E itself.

 

[Wayside]

As a store buyer, I will speak with dollars. In this case of Mearls, it will mean examing his work more closely in the future before I buy for myself, or recommend to my customers.

Smeelbo

I also live in Sacramento. What store(s) do you buy for?

 

[Phaezen]

Ran 2 awesome short campaigns using the Iron Heroes ruleset, adapting it for a priate flavoured and a Rokugan flavoured setting.

There are issues within the rules, as there are with all rpg systems, but my players and I have a ton of fun in the campaigns and will most likely look to run further filler campaigns using Iron Heroes.

@Capellan good to hear there will be more support forthcomming.

 

[ValhallaGH]

My life is starting to settle down again (and in a very nice way, thanks for asking),

I'm very glad to hear that. I hope it continues to work out nicely for you.