D&D 4E Is it DMs or players that are more apprehensive about 4e.

Mark which one best fits you

  • I'm mostly the DM and I dislike 4e more than I like it

    Votes: 52 24.1%
  • I'm mostly the DM and I like 4e more than I dislike it

    Votes: 108 50.0%
  • I'm mostly a player and I dislike 4e more than I like it

    Votes: 12 5.6%
  • I'm mostly a player and I like 4e more than I dislike it

    Votes: 32 14.8%
  • Other...cause I gots to be difficult

    Votes: 12 5.6%

I am mostly a dm and I am hella excited about 4e. I know myself well enough to know that I will at least buy the core books. If 4e is good, I'll certainly switch my campaign over (prolly restart at 1st level after advancing time a few hundred? thousand? years). If 4e sucks- which is possible, though the stated design goals and the talented designers involve make me think it is very unlikely- then I prolly will play it sometimes, mixing it up with other editions and systems entirely... and maybe even make my own HR system.
 

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as a DM....

I like alot of the options for players and the extra HP at 1st level...

It's just some stuff for my cosmology preferences, monster preferences (dragons with spells, demons with lots of funky powers, etc) that I will have to house rule..but i do enuff house rules now that it shouldn't be a problem). Also spells...I will add back spells from 1e, 2e, 3e, etc especially since stuff like chronomancy and wild magic play large rolls in my campaigns as do places such as Far Realm....so lots of house ruling there.

I think players will be happy so I am fine with switching...

Sanjay
 

99% DM and 75% positive on 4e.

I'm running a mid to high-level campaign (lvls 12-14) right now with players not so interested in the technical stuff, so the work of managing dozens of bonuses is on me.

That and the fact that they promised less cumbersome preparation originally sold me on 4e.

My enthusiasm just got dampened a bit with this named area Perception bonus granted by elves. :(

---
Huldvoll

Jan van Leyden
 

There are two DMs in my group, myself and another. We only really play with the primary group over the net, via ORPG, so whether or not 4e is good largely depends on whether WotC decides to screw everyone over in terms of the "v-minis" (i.e., I might be able to convince them all to pay the extortion ("subscription") fee to use the tools, but if they make the v-minis available only in random booster packs and not able to use multiple instances of a mini you've bought (plus the possibility of forcing each player to also have the same ones...ugh) there's no chance) or not (if they go with a sane v-mini model wherein you buy the book, and the e-book, and get minis associated with that and can use any number of instances of a single mini, or you can buy minis in packs or individually then maybe).

I'm already disliking the fact that I can't use any of the tools with out paying the extortion fee and have to use them through the browser (stupid design choice IMO, I'm a game dev and former web dev and know intimately the many avenues of failure of anything that uses a browser). If they go with the further extortion model for minis, then 4e is out entirely, at least for that group, and likely altogether.
 

Basically here's how I feel about 4e:

* If it makes D&D more popular, and easier for newbies to get into the game, it's good.
* I'm really interested in playing it to see how it goes and all the weird combat-related feats and abilities they've added.

That said:

* I mostly play clerics, druids and obscure specialist wizards (necromancers, polymorph abusers, monster-summoning conjurers) so I am disappointed (on an admittedly entirely selfish & personal level) because a lot of my favorite character builds are apparently being nerfed or eliminated from the core rules, 'cause of all the Iron Heroes~Book of Nine Swords mania sweeping the 4th edition design team. Heck, I was already bummed by all the spell changes from 3.0 to 3.5.
* As a DM, I've mostly been running variant forms of D&D and 3rd-party D&D campaign settings for the last four years, so I don't have any immediate interest in switching to 4e because first things first, I JUST GOTTA RUN A "TESTAMENT" CAMPAIGN BEFORE I DIE!!! :/

Another big change in 4e that I really don't like, although I can see why they did it, is the elimination of the "noob" levels. If D&D4e is divided like this:

Level 1-10: Heroic
Level 11-20: Paragon
Level 21-30: Epic

Then D&D3e is divided like this, informally:

Level 1-3: Newbie Adventurer
Level 4-14 or so: Heroic, aka "The Sweet Spot"
Level 15-20+: Chaos; Too High-Powered; Severe Ups & Downs; Weird High-Level Magic Becomes a Virtual Necessity

Frankly, I like the old system. I *LIKE* the fact that D&D games must change, not just in story, but also in strategy & tactical style as you advance. You go from being hapless apprentice adventurers who may have to run from a few hobgoblins to --> heroic adventurers who are pretty dang tough --> to high-level castle-owning, teleporting, plane-shifting dudes who have all kinds of crazy powers at their command but always have to worry about getting brought down by a "finger of death" or prismatic wall or beholder's eye beam or something. To me, all of these involve different styles of play and have their own advantages and disadvantages. I reluctantly understand why Wizards eliminated the "noob" levels, because frankly, it's true, whenever I play D&D with someone who hasn't played before, they're always all sayin' stuff like "What?!? I only have 10 hit points?!?" and "What?!? I can only use magic missile 4 times per day?!?" To me, it feels like power creep as everyone wants to play a tougher and tougher and tougher and more "Mary Sue" hero, but then I feel like an old geezer omplaining "Kids these days... In my day we died at zero hit pionts and we all got melted by gelatinous cubes at 1st level and we LIKED it! 'Cause there were no other kinds of RPGs to play!" @_@

Regardless, though, I do hope the 4e rules are written to be able to support (expect?) a different type of tabletop experience based on the characters' level. What I don't want is for the 1st level party to be fighting gnolls and lizard men with exactly the same strategy and general feel as the 25th level party fighting mariliths and baatezu, only with all the numbers bumped up, i.e. +30 to hit instead of +4 to hit.

I suppose this is something the individual DM can bring to the table, but I did grow to enjoy the different expectations that different levels of Pre-4e D&D carried with them -- i.e. Levels 1-3, "You Are Young, Grasshopper, So You Must Be Cautious", Levels 4-14, "Yeah!! Now you're real heroes! Rock on!" and Levels 15+, "Watch as I pull off this insane stunt! Now watch as the monster does this even more insane thing! Agggghhhh! This is Frickin' Chaos!" :)

Jason
 

Basically here's how I feel about 4e:

* If it makes D&D more popular, and easier for newbies to get into the game, it's good.
* I like the changes to the races and cosmology (tieflings, dragonborn, etc.), although this isn't a big deal to me anyway.
* The idea of being able to create a balanced party without spellcasters (thanks to Warlords, Second Wind, etc.) is pretty revolutionary and I'm looking forward to seeing how it works.
* I'm really interested in playing it to see how it goes and all the weird combat-related feats and abilities they've added.

That said:

* I mostly play clerics, druids and obscure specialist wizards (necromancers, polymorph abusers, monster-summoning conjurers) so I am disappointed (on an admittedly entirely selfish & personal level) because a lot of my favorite character builds are apparently being nerfed or eliminated from the core rules, 'cause of all the Iron Heroes~Book of Nine Swords mania sweeping the 4th edition design team. Heck, I was already bummed by all the spell changes from 3.0 to 3.5.
* As a DM, I've mostly been running variant forms of D&D and 3rd-party D&D campaign settings for the last four years, so I don't have any immediate interest in switching to 4e because first things first, I JUST GOTTA RUN A "TESTAMENT" CAMPAIGN BEFORE I DIE!!! :/

Another big change in 4e that I really don't like, although I can see why they did it, is the elimination of the "noob" levels. If D&D4e is divided like this:

Level 1-10: Heroic
Level 11-20: Paragon
Level 21-30: Epic

Then D&D3e is divided like this, informally:

Level 1-3: Newbie Adventurer
Level 4-14 or so: Heroic, aka "The Sweet Spot"
Level 15-20+: Chaos; Too High-Powered; Severe Ups & Downs; Weird High-Level Magic Becomes a Virtual Necessity

Frankly, I like the old system. I *LIKE* the fact that D&D games must change, not just in story, but also in strategy & tactical style as you advance. You go from being hapless apprentice adventurers who may have to run from a few hobgoblins to --> heroic adventurers who are pretty dang tough --> to high-level castle-owning, teleporting, plane-shifting dudes who have all kinds of crazy powers at their command but always have to worry about getting brought down by a "finger of death" or prismatic wall or beholder's eye beam or something. (But on the upside, your super-high-level cleric friend can bring you back. Unless the enemy traps your soul in a gem. In which case there's ANOTHER countermeasure you must have. Etc. High-level D&D in 3e and below isn't a game of rushing into danger, it's a game of preparation and gamesmanship with a lot of chaos, hinging on the results of random saving throws.)

To me, all of these different styles of play and have their own advantages and disadvantages. Basically, it's like having multiple games in one -- it's like low-level D&D equals Warhammer FRPG or Runequest, and high-level D&D equals Amber or Exalted or Ars Magica or Dying Earth Archmages! So flexible!!! :)

I reluctantly understand why Wizards eliminated the "noob" levels, because frankly, it's true, whenever I play D&D with someone who is a newbie hasn't played before, they're always shocked by how weak 1st-level characters are. I played with someone like that just the other night. They're all sayin' stuff like "What?!? I only have 10 hit points?!?" and "What?!? I can only use magic missile 4 times per day?!?" To me, it feels like power creep as everyone wants to play a tougher and tougher and tougher and more "Mary Sue" wish-fulfillmenty high-powered hero. But on the other hand, I realize that i sound like an old geezer complaining "Kids these days... In my day we died at zero hit points and we LIKED it! 'Cause there were no other kinds of RPGs to play!" @_@ In general, though, even in this modern age, I prefer a harsher, tougher D&D game (as long as it's fair, of course... I'm not saying I enjoy the DM killing the players for fun, elementary-school style...)

(Incidentally, one thing I always wondered about 1e and 2e D&D is that, unless I'm mistaken, you almost never hear "15 minute adventuring day" stories about those editions. Since spellcasters had even LESS spells per day in older editions of D&D, wouldn't it make sense that the "adventuring day" would be even shorter? But I suspect that, in fact, people were just playing with a different attitude and didn't abuse this particular aspect as much. Or 3e players are just much more balance-obsessed and/or players of older editions had so many other unbalanced things to deal with that they rarely got around to criticizing this particular thing. I'm sure someone who played more 1e and 2e games could give me anecdotal evidence to the contrary, though.)

Regardless, though, I do hope the 4e rules are written to be able to support (expect?) a different type of tabletop experience based on the characters' level. What I don't want is for the 1st level party to be fighting gnolls and lizard men with exactly the same strategy and general feel as the 25th level party fighting mariliths and baatezu, only with all the numbers bumped up, i.e. +30 to hit instead of +4 to hit.

I suppose this is something the individual DM can bring to the table, but I did grow to enjoy the different expectations that different levels of Pre-4e D&D carried with them -- i.e. Levels 1-3, "You Are Young, Grasshopper, So You Must Be Cautious", Levels 4-14, "Yeah!! We made it through the hard part! Now we're real heroes! Rock on!" and Levels 15+, "Watch as I pull off this insane stunt or cast this weird spell! Now watch as the monster does this even more insane thing! Agggghhhh! The whole party was polymorphed into snails! No, wait, my sub-character I bought with the Leadership feat casts Mass Dispel! No, wait, Antimagic Field! Agghhh!! This is Chaos!" :) Ahh, sweet Chaos...

Jason
 
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Gundark said:
Just in observing the 4e apprehension/Hate/dislike here on the forums, it seems that the majority comes from people who DM more than they play. Lets take a poll and see shall we?

Answer the question that BEST fits your stance. I know I'm not going to get your exact feelings on the topic, just try not to be difficult.
I always had the impression that there are just more DMs then players on this forum. While I mostly play, I also DM, and I think my DM-side gets more mileage of these boards then my player side. (And I don't complain, because I want to become a better DM. Playing isn't that hard...)
 

Other, cause I gots to be difficult....

Namely, I'm roughly equal parts player and DM, and I seriously dislike most things I've heard about 4E so far.

It'd be nice if the poll had options for folks who spend about equal amounts of time on either side of the DM's screen.
 

Fifth Element said:
Peculiar that someone could disagree with you?

There's more to it than just the press releases. There's knowledge about the designers, there's SWSE, there's Bo9S, there's the warlock, etc, etc. Not to mention the first full preview book. We have more to go on than "This is cool!"

And yet, at the same time, so little.

At what point does death occur?

How does alignment work?

Will Magic Items level with players?

etc...
 

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