Is it harder to be a DM in a high-level campaign?

[Rackhir]

Point about the "Combat, 8 hr rest in Mord's Mansion" cycle. One trick that I know PC uses, is to make the rest of the world continue on in the mean time.

Bad guys might change locations, throw up more defenses, wipe out/steal/destroy important things/char/places that the PC's need to protect.

Also the entrance is detectable for both Mord's and rope trick. Which means all sorts of siege tactics/traps can make life a living hell for the PCs when they decide to emerge. Pass at Thermopylae anyone?

 

[takyris]

I would like to point out that Spell Turning doesn't work against Disintegrate ... it's really sad when a BBEG wizard can't last two rounds in combat.

True. I wasn't thinking of it as a catchall. On the other hand, against Disintegrate, you've got (correct me if I'm wrong)

Shield (AC bonus)
Entropic Shield (Miss chance)

Displacement
Blur
Mirror Image

(Both rely on illusion, and can be overcome by True Seeing, though.)

Blink (partially overcome by True Seeing, but still some miss chance because dude Isn't There)

Protection from Spells (bonus to saves, yes?)

A Wall of Force or Invisible Wall of Iron ten feet in front of the PCs. It's invisible but not built to trap them -- it's just meant to cause that disintegrate to be wasted blowing up an invisible wall -- and if that fireball blows up in their face, well, oops.

Someone with True Seeing can see the wall, though, so a possible better tactic is some sort of prepared trigger like "Conjure this Wall of Force as soon as anyone who is not me begins casting a spell" in the wizard's stronghold.

Or you can come up with other means of handling an opponent with True Seeing. Beyond my basilisk trick, there's the fun and exciting "Enemy Fighter with a Net that has Silence cast on it", or the crazed and deluded idea of hiring a bard/barbarian with a lot of ranks in Use Magic Device to activate a Staff of Antimagic (Contains Antimagic Field and Greater Dispelling) on himself (the Antimagic Field, of course) and then start whaling on the party wizard. On a simpler note, a bunch of targeted Greater Dispel Magics can cut through the buffing stuff right quick.

Honestly, though, True Seeing is a powerful spell, and it should be useful -- it's a high-level one. As an evil wizard being attacked in his lair, my primary plan would be to kill the one or two people in the party who have True Seeing, rather than coming up with defenses against it -- because it's rare for EVERYONE to have True Seeing. And as a DM, I don't let the party cleric tell eveyone where the invisible wizard is exactly -- he can shout "Over there!" or "Fireball right where I'm Flame-Striking!", but he can't give the rest of the party a five-foot square.

Also, as that same wizard, my overall goal is to get the party to waste their big money spells on me before the fight really starts. I want them using Disintegrate and Destruction spells on an illusionary version of me, on my lieutenant who's been polymorphed to look like me, on me when I'm protected by an invisible barrier, or on whatever I've just summoned that's tearing the rogue a new lockpick pouch... If our good friend the Disintegrate-casting wizard is feeling proud of himself, wait until the bad guy wins initiative and uses a Quickened Haste, followed by Evard's Black Tentacles, followed by Stinking Cloud. Then my troop of Small Golems wanders in, ignored by the tentacles, and proceeds to whoop PC butt.

There are always tactics available. You just have to hunt around and play with stuff.

That's beautiful! Yoink!

 

[Arnwyn]

Not everyone likes the "fight one battle, rest 8 hours, fight next battle, rest 8 hours" approach. There are ways to counter it, but I find rope trick so unbelievable cheesy that I just banned it. A party resting each night or day in an extradimensional hideout is not my idea of Fantasy.

Yeah, I know, I know, Fenes 2. (By now, I'm quite aware how your campaign works! )

However, I don't think those who are complaining about how hard CotSQ is are the same who don't like "the 'fight one battle, rest 8 hours, fight next battle, rest 8 hours' approach". These two attitudes are not congruent ("We keep dying! But we refuse to use all the resources available to us! But we keep dying!").

In any case, my style is to avoid "banning" anything in the PHB. While I love me my nerfing of the PCs, there's only so much I can do before I start to feel really dirty...

 

[Arnwyn]

Also the entrance is detectable for both Mord's and rope trick. Which means all sorts of siege tactics/traps can make life a living hell for the PCs when they decide to emerge.

Uh... I don't think so. Not for Rope Trick, anyways. AFAIK, Rope Trick (once the rope is pulled up) is completely undetectable by conventional means. (And dudes walking around with Detect Magic on in the middle of nowhere is *not* believable nor reasonable, I'm afraid.)

 

[Rackhir]

Uh... I don't think so. Not for Rope Trick, anyways. AFAIK, Rope Trick (once the rope is pulled up) is completely undetectable by conventional means. (And dudes walking around with Detect Magic on in the middle of nowhere is *not* believable nor reasonable, I'm afraid.)

From the SRD: "Those in the extradimensional space can see out of it as if a 3-foot-by-5-foot window were centered on the rope. The window is present in the Prime Material Plane, but it’s invisible, and even creatures that can see it somehow can’t see through it."

All it takes is a detect magic/see invisible/true sight/etc... to detect the window. As far as the reasonability of finding it, we are talking about high level bad guys. It's entirely concievable that they have the resources to find it, especially when the PCs have been using this trick to help hit them repeatedly.

 

[Arnwyn]

All it takes is a detect magic/see invisible/true sight/etc... to detect the window. As far as the reasonability of finding it, we are talking about high level bad guys. It's entirely concievable that they have the resources to find it, especially when the PCs have been using this trick to help hit them repeatedly.

Yup, that's what I said: "Completely undetectable by conventional means".

If the PCs use Rope Trick in the middle of nowhere, I don't think it's conceivable at all that it would be found easily, "high level" or otherwise.

Now, I *do* agree with you that if the PCs use Rope Trick in the middle of the BBEG's castle and repeatedly hit the bad guys - then the PCs are in a bit of trouble! But in the middle of a large dungeon or the Underdark (e.g. CotSQ)? I think not.

 

[Rackhir]

Yup, that's what I said: "Completely undetectable by conventional means".

If the PCs use Rope Trick in the middle of nowhere, I don't think it's conceivable at all that it would be found easily, "high level" or otherwise.

Now, I *do* agree with you that if the PCs use Rope Trick in the middle of the BBEG's castle and repeatedly hit the bad guys - then the PCs are in a bit of trouble! But in the middle of a large dungeon or the Underdark (e.g. CotSQ)? I think not.

And why would a group of high level bad guys rely on "conventional means"? The whole point of being high level is that you have ready access to unconventional means. Detect magic (a cantrip) is nothing to high level casters and most likely they have wands of it coming out of their ears. Also most high level characters are likely to have items that permit some sort of extraordinary perception.

As far as detecting the rope trick/mm entrance location, I didn't say it would be easy or a trivial task. However, it is hardly a major task for high level opponents to pick up something like that. Divination spells of one sort or another can easily narrow down the location and then scrying/crystal balls/lots and lots of flunkies should be able to pick it up, if sufficient effort is put into it.

The thing to keep in mind with something like this is that there is always a way around things. Nobody can cover ALL of the possible ways of gathering information at high level with out some sort of DM special or spending nearly all their efforts on doing only that.

 

[dok]

Good Lord yes it's harder!

I really hope I'm replyin to the 'high-level campaign' thread and not posting a new message, since the subject line looks too much like some of the spam emails I've been getting...

Yes, it's tougher to DM a high-level game.

1.) Adventure planning is made more challenging by high level magic, as already pointed out. The Scry-port combo is ugly, Divinations require some forethought, etc. etc.

Yes, it was M. Cook who said "embrace, don't negate", and it's a good policy. Walls without doors & chasms without bridges require some problem solving on the PCs part, as well as helping preserve some continuity aspects. Suddenly, it's easy to understand why The Temple of Icky Black Nastiness hasn't been explored before now: it takes certain magic to enter.

Murder mysteries are still possible with Divination, but they have to transcend the "Scooby-Doo" mystery mode. A possessing ghost, victims killed from behind without seeing their attacker, assassins hired by proxy, with only a letter & a sack of coins to tie them to their employer, all of these tricks become essential.

The 'front-line' enemies are usually dupes, or at the least know only one or two layers above them. Plans within plans within plans...

2.) Game session planning takes longer. Higher level monsters often have hosts of spell-like abilities that have tactical applictions. 3.0 monsters have their spell like abilities listed, but not the DCs (because those five extra characters would have been too much). 3.5 wisely added the Grapple line for all monsters, but many 3.0 monsters have Improved Grab.

IMC, most high level monsters aren't up to the task. (my game is presently lvl 18) So I find that advancing monsters to x2 & x3 HD puts them in a better challenge range. But that's also more work, to recalculate their hp, attacks, saves, skills & feats.

High level NPCs are even more work, even using the 'generic NPCs' in the DMG, and the 'generic' spell lists from the T&B enhancement. (A special thanks to the 3.5 team who eliminated those features in the 3.5 DMG) And the sad reality is that at high levels, magic items make a huge difference. A 4th level fighter might be CR 4, but a 15th level NPC fighter just isn't CR 15. Not even remotely.

3.) I mentioned magic items making a difference? Magic makes a huge difference. Some of the 3.5 changes were done, I suspect, simply because a high level encounter pretty much required the use of Greater Dispelling. 1 hour/lvl buffs weren't just a good idea, they were the standard. After 12th level, two lasts a character the whole day. Or just one with Extend Spell. And I don't see this as 'power gaming', it's just the smartest choice.

3.5) A side note on Extend spell & other metamagic feats: IMO, metamagic is 'balanced' only if you look at 20 levels of usage. At low levels, it's too costly. A feat + spell slots = too big a drain on resources for too small returns. At mid-levels, it's about right. A 10th level caster can afford to spend the 4th level slot for a longer Lightning Bolt or an Empowered stat-buffing spell. It's a trade-off, but it's not impossible. It's at high levels that the wheels start coming off the cart. Now casters have lots of slots, so why not use them? There aren't many 7th level spells that are as damaging as an Empowered Cone of Cold or double-empowered Fireball. So "too weak at low levels, OK at mid levels, too powerful at high levels" averages to "balanced", sort of. Sadly, 3.5's "no multiple applications" fix of metamagic only addresses the high level issue, and leaves it too poor at low levels.


4.) Because of the factors above, an amazing number of things become less useful. Disease & poison are worthless at high level; a cleric doesn't have a lot of good choices for 2nd level spells, so Delay poison lets the cleric wait until after combat and then neutralize all the accumulated poison. Spell-like abilities of monsters are usually weak, because the creature has an average Charisma.

The lone BBG simply doesn't work at high levels. He needs multiple allies to protect him. Or, you simply have to use two or three BBGs.

Because of the design of the Turning Mechanic, templated undead (vampire, lich, ghost, etc) are all but useless, with the turn resistance being offset by the CR modifier and the mistaken assumption that +1 character level = +1 CR. Other undead at high levels actually are MORE powerful than they appear. In addition to ignoring the cleric's turning because of buckets of HD, they also ignore the flanking rogue and the keen, Improved Critical weapon's master.

5.) I'll second another point: the CR/EL system gets wonky at high levels. A template that adds +2 to CR but doesn't increase AC or Hit points substantially isn't really +2 to CR.

6.) If it doesn't have SR, it's probably dead.


I'd say high level games are more challenging for a DM, without a doubt. I'd say that it takes longer to write & prepare for a high level game. And I'm man enough to admit that I simply can't continue my current game into Epic levels.

 

[Enceladus]

color me brief

I really think plan time depends on how often you game. I run one game every two weeks. This give me plenty of time to prepare that high level stuff.

 

[Iced Tea]

One of the tricks I have found is that you don't even have to make an adventure. You just have to make the world.. All you have to do, is know what is happening in the world, and then tell them when they ask, and try and think of the geo-polictical rammifications. I played in a game where over the course of 26 years game time, my character became a dragon (that was his driving goal). In the process he destroyed a Lich King and his army, overthrew another countries rightful king and put in a "Puppet", founded a magocracy/dictatorship of his own in a country he raised from the bottom of the ocean floor, and a few other little things. And that was done at the high levels. And he was able to do it because of the contacts he had made at the lower levels. And the DM didn't have to make adventures after a while, because I would go out and make them myself.

you now are my hero.
My brother's character and I are trying to raise a kingdom from scratch, but form lower levels, and havent really been really successfull because we are located far away. right now we convinced some other countries to join our cause and once my brothers followers start to come in we will be bigger than a homlet (we "inherited a small castle from a group of bandits and took in the survivors of a town we saved when it got sucked into the shadow plane) now we are 14 level and i made an artifact of sorts called the crown of Auzmanaus: +4 to charisma and +10 to diplomacy checks (had to decrease it casue of the pricing for 3.5) and works only for good characters. im a little afraidthat jake will take black guard classes (level 14 paladin) and become a dictator and wont need the lonely wizrd with a 6 charisma. but 21 natural intelligence (27 with m head band of intellect +6 that works only for wizards) we have to be cheap because we are trying to run akingdom after all so please forgive the min-maxing