Is it just me or do any of you think Speed Factor on weapons should be brought back?
- Thread starter Calico_Jack73
- Start date
reiella
Explorer
SSquirrel said:Also, Riella, excellent work on things. So if you have to get up AC 47 before things start balancing toward the lone dagger being favorable that sounds pretty ridiculous. Only time I've seen AC that high is in Baldur's GateA *grin*
Hagen
Well, to be fair, Darklone did the work, I just adjusted it to have a lil more versatility because I was interested in seeing how the numbers drew out.
Also, the real problem happens in that the 'weapon damage' difference tends to close in on each other (reaching 10 point or less variance per round) alot earlier.
I think best comparison might be Scimitar versus Broadsword, so as not to cloud the problem between viability of Big Sword versus Sword and board/Two Sword .. And that results in some rather disturbing trends, especially since the average damage for the broadsword is only 2 points more (1d10 versus 1d6). And in that situation I have a big problem justifying anyone using a broad sword over a scimitar. Unless, of course, you face critters whose DR you can't Overcome.
The slow weapon user would have two advantages, more damage per hit and slow weapons are almost universally 'tougher'/'harder' to sunder than quick. The advantages of the first are also largely circumstancial, only significantly arising if your party faces DR they can't overcome or the fighter in question is using standard actions (Charges, Readied Actions).
Darklone
Registered User
Go ahead with changes in the spreadsheet, it's all OGL rules stuff and others posted much better spreadsheets before 
We shouldn't forget that this thingy only compares full attack actions, the big slow bash weapons still win for AoOs, charges and other move-attack scenarios (which is IMHO more ridiculous than the "problem" that "fast" weapons don't attack more often).
Added: It's not a real problem to consider different numbers of attacks or higher BABs, if you want... just add a few rows and columns
I tried to keep the sheet pretty adaptable.
SSquirrel: AD&D double dagger fighters: Might be that our DMs rolled too bad on the treasure tables, but usually we had about three magical daggers at level 8 and perhaps one bigger sword (usually longsword) in the group... the change to get a magical greatsword or even a battleaxe was diminuitive compared with the heaps of magical daggers we found all the time
And even without these weapon speeds: The daggers damage was often higher ...
Edit: Criticals ... like scythe or falchion: They start to be better than a greatsword at a certain fixed bonus to damage... that's actually a pretty simple calculation done over in the rules forum by so many guys that I never cared to check it...
But most often you can adress criticals simply by an additional factor to the average damage, it doesn't change the damage compared for different ACs (in most relevant cases).
We shouldn't forget that this thingy only compares full attack actions, the big slow bash weapons still win for AoOs, charges and other move-attack scenarios (which is IMHO more ridiculous than the "problem" that "fast" weapons don't attack more often).
Added: It's not a real problem to consider different numbers of attacks or higher BABs, if you want... just add a few rows and columns
I tried to keep the sheet pretty adaptable.
SSquirrel: AD&D double dagger fighters: Might be that our DMs rolled too bad on the treasure tables, but usually we had about three magical daggers at level 8 and perhaps one bigger sword (usually longsword) in the group... the change to get a magical greatsword or even a battleaxe was diminuitive compared with the heaps of magical daggers we found all the time
And even without these weapon speeds: The daggers damage was often higher ...
Edit: Criticals ... like scythe or falchion: They start to be better than a greatsword at a certain fixed bonus to damage... that's actually a pretty simple calculation done over in the rules forum by so many guys that I never cared to check it...
But most often you can adress criticals simply by an additional factor to the average damage, it doesn't change the damage compared for different ACs (in most relevant cases).
Last edited:
BarkingDeathSquirrel
First Post
Having seen it now, I personally prefer the method presented on the first page, where the weapon speed does affect your itterative attack bonus but not how many attacks you have. Seems fair enough. I might actually have to use that... Though I can understand why people like it actually affecting your amount of attacks. 
Yeah does seem a bit odd that you can take the same number of AoOs with a slow weapon over a fast one. Heh, you could always use this iterative attack table to modify everyone's AoOs as well if they have more than one.Darklone said:
Ahh see I think that about half the time my DMs just picked out treaure instead of rolling, but even when I watched them roll we usually got some good stuff and not many magic daggers. My personal fave was trying to convince the DM into giving my wizard a Dagger of Throwing. Great weapon! Throw it, comes back throw again. Next round *grin* You could throw 2 daggers in 1 round in 2E.Darklone said:SSquirrel: AD&D double dagger fighters: Might be that our DMs rolled too bad on the treasure tables, but usually we had about three magical daggers at level 8 and perhaps one bigger sword (usually longsword) in the group... the change to get a magical greatsword or even a battleaxe was diminuitive compared with the heaps of magical daggers we found all the time
And even without these weapon speeds: The daggers damage was often higher ...
Best case of rolling tho was when 3 of us made 2 12th levels each to go thru Dragon Mountain in a night or 2 cuz the DM was just in town for a quick visit. I had a Wild Mage and the DM rolled up a Wand ofWonder. "No I'm not gonna give that to you!" "What is it?" "Wand of Wonder" "Oh PLEASE!" (Wild Mages could control the output of a Wand of Wonder) "No!" So he rerolled and got it AGAIN!
The other guys backed me up that he pretty much had to give it to me as thta was some sort of sign. So he made sure that the kobolds listened for the command word and atatcked and beat me up and took it and used it against us.
Oh and BTW Yes it was Darklone who did the original work. Didn't mean to not compliment your work, was just specifically talking about Reiella's work on the sheet afterwards.
BDSquirrel>Another squirrel. Our evil plot thickens.
Hagen
Darklone
Registered User
Oh yeah... wands of wonder Loved it!
Some ideas to make "light" and "fast" (I still think it's silly, cause I hit pretty fast and often with Bastard Sword and Battle axe in RL) weapons better with houserules for AoOs:
- Use the Double Strike feat from the MiniHB (I think): gives you AoOs with both weapons.
- Some kind of ManyShot feat (though TWF dudes have enough feat choice problems) where you can move & attack with both weapons (e.g. with Spring attack)
- To hit modifiers for "fast" and "slow" weapons in single attack scenarios.
Another thing: About the number of attacks with different iteratives for different weapon speeds: Like Sean wrote in his article, this gives a weird nonlinear behavior for different levels (BABs) where sometimes the greatsword is superior and sometimes the TWF or light attack routine... that's why I don't like the mechanism.
Loved it!Some ideas to make "light" and "fast" (I still think it's silly
, cause I hit pretty fast and often with Bastard Sword and Battle axe in RL) weapons better with houserules for AoOs:- Use the Double Strike feat from the MiniHB (I think): gives you AoOs with both weapons.
- Some kind of ManyShot feat (though TWF dudes have enough feat choice problems) where you can move & attack with both weapons (e.g. with Spring attack)
- To hit modifiers for "fast" and "slow" weapons in single attack scenarios.
Another thing: About the number of attacks with different iteratives for different weapon speeds: Like Sean wrote in his article, this gives a weird nonlinear behavior for different levels (BABs) where sometimes the greatsword is superior and sometimes the TWF or light attack routine... that's why I don't like the mechanism.
reiella
Explorer
Darklone said:
That's actually already true, near when you break lvl 20... Due to the majority of damage being determined by weapon modifiers rather than the weapon's actual damage.
Of course, 3.5 tried to help this out with Power Attack's change to 2h weapons, but I have no clue how to approach that
. Also a large part of that perception may be due to 'increased feat usage', but again, I honestly don't know how to account for the increased power attack variance.Anycase, it's mostly an issue of additive damage results combined with the Improved TWF feats.
Raven Crowking
First Post
Henry said:
When an armed combatant closes with another armed combatant, the second combatant gains an attack of opportunity if his weapon is two or more size categories larger than the first combatant’s. In the case of creatures using natural weapons, the creature’s size category is used instead of weapon size. Thus a human monk closing on a longsword wielding human fighter does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but a human armed with a dagger provokes an attack of opportunity when closing with a human armed with a halberd. This rule does not apply if the second combatant is flat-footed, does not have his or her weapon ready, or is otherwise unable to attack.
shadismythos
First Post
here's my 2 cents
A lot of this is a rip-off from previous posts, but here's what we have been playing with and tweaking for the last month:
Very Light: 1 lb or less base speed 3 20/17/14/11
Light: 2-3 lbs base speed 4 20/16/12/8
Medium: 4 lbs base speed 5 20/15/10/5
Heavy: 5-7 lbs base speed 6 20/14/8/2
Very Heavy: 8+ base speed 7 20/13/6
There has been speculation about how unwieldly some weapons may be compared to others, due to how the weapon is weighted, where the “business end” is situated, or even how much of the weapon’s striking surface can easily be brought to bear. For instance, a battleaxe has only the one-sided cutting edge which is small compared to the cutting edge length of a sword, and being tip heavy is not as balanced as a sword. These, however, do not actually affect the swing, but rather the hit, which is represented in both damage and the critical threat range and damage multiplier.
Now for strength. Obviously, a 12 lb weapon is as nothing to a 22 STR character. So, for every +2 modifier in STR, decrease the base speed by 1. And for every -1 in STR, increase the base speed by 1. Keep in mind that wielding a weapon in both hands multiplies the STR bonus by 1.5. So, a fighter with max attacks and 17 STR with a 2-handed greatsword would be base speed 5 (greatsword very heavy base speed 7, Str 17 +3, 2 handed bonus +4.5 round down, +4 bonus reduces base speed 7 to base speed 5)
In the case of dual-wielding, all the above still apply, thought they won’t be applicable until a character obtains the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat or better. All normal penalties for dual-wielding still apply.
Double weapons are more tricky. Now the “second” portion of the weapon is almost always considered light, so penalties for dual-wielding are minimized. However, the second hand is not as maneuverable while holding a double weapon as it would be holding a separate weapon. As such, we will not treat it as a second weapon, but as an extension of the same weapon. For purposes of determining base speed, treat double weapons as a single 2 handed weapon with the appropriate STR multiplier of 1.5. Keep in mind this multiplier does not apply to the damge as it would with a regular 2 handed weapon, only the base speed (the character is only holding it 2 handed, not swinging it 2 handed). If they should opt to use it as a single 2 handed weapon (which is allowed in most instances, but they forfeit the extra off hand attacks) the damage multiplier will apply as well.
Now to address the problem of training. Of course, a high level fighter could and should be able to whip around a heavier weapon with greater ease than a low level one. And training is done with feats.
WEAPON SPEED [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You are faster than normal when using this weapon.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: Your iterated attacks in a full attack with this weapon increase in base speed speed by 1.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
.....A fighter may select Weapon Speed as one of his fighter bonus feats.
GREATER WEAPON SPEED [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Speed feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Speed with the selected weapon, base attack bonus +12
Benefit: Your iterated attacks in a full attack with this weapon increase in base speed by 2. This supersedes the bonus granted by the Weapon Speed feat.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
......A fighter may select Greater Weapon Speed as one of his fighter bonus feats.
EPIC WEAPON SPEED [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Speed feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Epic Weapon Focus with the selected weapon, Weapon Speed with the selected weapon, Greater Weapon Speed with the selected weapon
Benefit: Your iterated attacks in a full attack with this weapon increase in base speed by 3. This supersedes the bonus granted by the Greater Weapon Speed feat.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
.....A fighter may select Epic Weapon Speed as one of his fighter bonus feats.
I dunno. It works, and makes for some very varied (did I just say that) fighting styles, where a well trained fighter still rules in melee, but a quick thief shouldn't be discounted either. Let me know.
A lot of this is a rip-off from previous posts, but here's what we have been playing with and tweaking for the last month:
Very Light: 1 lb or less base speed 3 20/17/14/11
Light: 2-3 lbs base speed 4 20/16/12/8
Medium: 4 lbs base speed 5 20/15/10/5
Heavy: 5-7 lbs base speed 6 20/14/8/2
Very Heavy: 8+ base speed 7 20/13/6
There has been speculation about how unwieldly some weapons may be compared to others, due to how the weapon is weighted, where the “business end” is situated, or even how much of the weapon’s striking surface can easily be brought to bear. For instance, a battleaxe has only the one-sided cutting edge which is small compared to the cutting edge length of a sword, and being tip heavy is not as balanced as a sword. These, however, do not actually affect the swing, but rather the hit, which is represented in both damage and the critical threat range and damage multiplier.
Now for strength. Obviously, a 12 lb weapon is as nothing to a 22 STR character. So, for every +2 modifier in STR, decrease the base speed by 1. And for every -1 in STR, increase the base speed by 1. Keep in mind that wielding a weapon in both hands multiplies the STR bonus by 1.5. So, a fighter with max attacks and 17 STR with a 2-handed greatsword would be base speed 5 (greatsword very heavy base speed 7, Str 17 +3, 2 handed bonus +4.5 round down, +4 bonus reduces base speed 7 to base speed 5)
In the case of dual-wielding, all the above still apply, thought they won’t be applicable until a character obtains the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat or better. All normal penalties for dual-wielding still apply.
Double weapons are more tricky. Now the “second” portion of the weapon is almost always considered light, so penalties for dual-wielding are minimized. However, the second hand is not as maneuverable while holding a double weapon as it would be holding a separate weapon. As such, we will not treat it as a second weapon, but as an extension of the same weapon. For purposes of determining base speed, treat double weapons as a single 2 handed weapon with the appropriate STR multiplier of 1.5. Keep in mind this multiplier does not apply to the damge as it would with a regular 2 handed weapon, only the base speed (the character is only holding it 2 handed, not swinging it 2 handed). If they should opt to use it as a single 2 handed weapon (which is allowed in most instances, but they forfeit the extra off hand attacks) the damage multiplier will apply as well.
Now to address the problem of training. Of course, a high level fighter could and should be able to whip around a heavier weapon with greater ease than a low level one. And training is done with feats.
WEAPON SPEED [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You are faster than normal when using this weapon.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: Your iterated attacks in a full attack with this weapon increase in base speed speed by 1.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
.....A fighter may select Weapon Speed as one of his fighter bonus feats.
GREATER WEAPON SPEED [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Speed feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Weapon Speed with the selected weapon, base attack bonus +12
Benefit: Your iterated attacks in a full attack with this weapon increase in base speed by 2. This supersedes the bonus granted by the Weapon Speed feat.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
......A fighter may select Greater Weapon Speed as one of his fighter bonus feats.
EPIC WEAPON SPEED [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Speed feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Greater Weapon Focus with selected weapon, Epic Weapon Focus with the selected weapon, Weapon Speed with the selected weapon, Greater Weapon Speed with the selected weapon
Benefit: Your iterated attacks in a full attack with this weapon increase in base speed by 3. This supersedes the bonus granted by the Greater Weapon Speed feat.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
.....A fighter may select Epic Weapon Speed as one of his fighter bonus feats.
I dunno. It works, and makes for some very varied (did I just say that) fighting styles, where a well trained fighter still rules in melee, but a quick thief shouldn't be discounted either. Let me know.
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