Is it just me...

[Davelozzi]

But the changes between AD&D and 3E were far greater than the forecast shift from 3E to 4E. The system isn't being overhauled, just updated.

I'm not sure that I agree with this, it feels to me like the changes happening this time around are more significant. When they were ramping up to 3e, every change I heard about seemed like a logical choice made to improve play. However this time around, the changes make wonder whether or not the end result will still feel like D&D to me. Granted this might not be as much the case if I was hearing more specifics about the mechanics and less about fluff changes, however that's not what they've been talking about.

 

[Hairfoot]

I'm not sure that I agree with this, it feels to me like the changes happening this time around are more significant.

3E kept the basic classes, races, and terminology, but, among other changes, introduced the D20 mechanic and a more complex combat system. It relaxed rules for racial- and multi-classing, introduced a formal and consistent skills system and used a "modular" system for magic items.

From what I've heard, 4E will largely be an embellishment of 3E. The race and class names will remain, we will still be talking in standard/move/swift actions, skills will be integral to character generation, albeit with slightly different rules, and I can't imagine magic items becoming less accessible/createable for players.

I could well be wrong, but I think that 4E will be recognisable as a breed of 3E, and not a fundamentally different game, as AD&D is.

However this time around, the changes make wonder whether or not the end result will still feel like D&D to me.

Well, there are thousands of pages on ENworld which demonstrate that each new edition "doesn't feel like D&D" to a large portion of gamers!

Though in this case I agree: 4E seems to be breaking away from most of the conventions of pre-3E D&D.

 

[Warbringer]

Morrus signed an NDA?!

No, unless he's secretly a playtester but he has a good relationship with the Folks at WoTC and would honor the non-publishing of nda leaks...

anyway don't want to put anymore words in his mouth

 

[Nifft]

No, unless he's secretly a playtester but he has a good relationship with the Folks at WoTC and would honor the non-publishing of nda leaks...

anyway don't want to put anymore words in his mouth

Yeah, see, if he hasn't signed a contract, there's nothing for him to honor. I don't have to abide by your work's dress code; you don't have to refrain from discussing ... certain things that I'm not going to discuss.

- - -

This site started as a rumor mill for 3e. I'll be terribly disappointed if we don't see any 4e rumors here.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Jhulae]

Emphasis mine...

This is what worries me the most. I wonder if writing a rpg is like writing a story or novel. Yeah, it's good to self-edit...but often times people can be so close to what they write, design, etc. that it can be quite beneficial to get some outside perspective. The thing is the designers have, in so many words, said that externnal playtesting will only be used to address minor problems. Not sure if I think that's a good idea. If players are able to find flaws in the fundamental mechanics of the game (not saying they necessarily will), it should be addressed. To do otherwise is really a disservice to the game and your consumers.

4th Edition seems to be quite similar to SWSE (I remember it being said that the system for one was pretty much based on the system of the other - I don't remember the order), and that's been out for a while. The classes, races, and other specifics might be different, but the core system for 4th has been getting a good 'playtest' through SWSE. Plus, they just about admitted as much that many things from Bo9S, PHBII, and many of the recent 'Complete' books are also 'playtest' material for 4th edition.

So, to say that playtesting hasn't been going on is unfounded. Playtesting for the specific differences in 4th edition are what's being done now, it seems, and I don't have much of an issue with that, as the core systems have been around now for at least a year for a *lot* of play-testers (anyone who's purchased and played with those books).

 

[tenkar]

Yeah, see, if he hasn't signed a contract, there's nothing for him to honor. I don't have to abide by your work's dress code; you don't have to refrain from discussing ... certain things that I'm not going to discuss.

- - -

This site started as a rumor mill for 3e. I'll be terribly disappointed if we don't see any 4e rumors here.

Cheers, -- N

There is a lot for this site to consider. Addressing rumors is one thing... posting confirmed leaks from playtesters under NDA is another.

If ENWorld wishes to remain close with WotC I expect they will refrain from encouraging people to violate their NDAs.

 

[helium3]

Isn't WOTC working on 4E for about almost 2 years now? And they still have like 7 months ahead before the release.

Well, I think this is sorta what worries some people. They started on the new edition in 2005 and multi-classing is one of those things that should be pretty integral to the system and not some sort of afterthought.

I do think that some of the flux we're seeing with the posts on gleemax has more to do with them preparing more material for the PHB than they need, so they're in the process of deciding what they actually want to use.

For what it's worth, the WP book does have a really cool timeline of the development of 4E and even there, they admit that they occasionally got off track with overly elegant ideas that just didn't work out.

 

[Imaro]

4th Edition seems to be quite similar to SWSE (I remember it being said that the system for one was pretty much based on the system of the other - I don't remember the order), and that's been out for a while. The classes, races, and other specifics might be different, but the core system for 4th has been getting a good 'playtest' through SWSE. Plus, they just about admitted as much that many things from Bo9S, PHBII, and many of the recent 'Complete' books are also 'playtest' material for 4th edition.

So, to say that playtesting hasn't been going on is unfounded. Playtesting for the specific differences in 4th edition are what's being done now, it seems, and I don't have much of an issue with that, as the core systems have been around now for at least a year for a *lot* of play-testers (anyone who's purchased and played with those books).

And they collected the data from these so called playtest groups how? SW saga ed. just came out, and it's just now hitting the point where the shiny has worn off and people are really starting to look at it's mechnics for good or ill. So I still don't see actual playtesting...with pertinent feedback being given.

 

[helium3]

From what I've heard, 4E will largely be an embellishment of 3E. The race and class names will remain, we will still be talking in standard/move/swift actions, skills will be integral to character generation, albeit with slightly different rules, and I can't imagine magic items becoming less accessible/createable for players.

I think the above is all true. However, I also think that 4E as a game will play very very differently than the previous editions. Remember how in the video they played at GenCon, the players in 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition all sat glumly around the table and rolled dice while the players in 4th edition were jumping around, smiling and getting all excited?

I think that's how the 4E designers want the game to change. If 1E, 2E and 3E were like a game of chess (or maybe Axis and Allies), 4E is going to feel more like a game of craps or yahtzee. More visceral excitement, less toiling on the battlemat.

 

[snappa]

I think the above is all true. However, I also think that 4E as a game will play very very differently than the previous editions. Remember how in the video they played at GenCon, the players in 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition all sat glumly around the table and rolled dice while the players in 4th edition were jumping around, smiling and getting all excited?

I think that's how the 4E designers want the game to change. If 1E, 2E and 3E were like a game of chess (or maybe Axis and Allies), 4E is going to feel more like a game of craps or yahtzee. More visceral excitement, less toiling on the battlemat.

I sincerely hope you forgot a [sarcasm] tag in your post. No game I have run in 20+ years of DMing has featured players sitting glumly around a table rolling dice. Some PR/marketing goon with a knowledge of psychology wrote the script that way to subtly indicate that 4E is a fun game, while 3.x is not. I agree that it is the focus of 4E, making the game more fun to play, and I think it's a noble one.

Sure, there are things that slow the game down and make it less-fun in 3.x, but it remains to be seen that they are corrected in 4th edition. From the official "playtest report" propaganda, it appears that we're trading complex grappling and special combat mechanics for tons of reactive abilities which may disrupt the turn structure of the game, and trading save or die effects for incremental penalties which would be a nightmare to keep track of.

Only time will tell.