Is it just me...

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Good lord I hope not. What you get from the totally ignorant can't be dignified with the term "feedback".

It depends a bit on the feedback:

"The 4e fighter sounds totally broken" = garbage bin

"Gee, I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really wish the druid is in the 4e PHB. Why haven't we heard anything about the druid" x 100 posters = possibly real feedback.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Good lord I hope not.

Yes. The internet believes it's the centre of the universe. But it isn't.

 

[Tharkun]

Is it just me, or does it feel to anyone else like WoTC announced 4e kinda prematurely? The fluidity I'm perciveing about classes, races, spells, powers etc feels to me like they don't have anything like enough time to do adequate playtesting before the game ships. This is not quick run, print on demand stuff. They need to have the books locked down months before they ship, and it feels like they are still brain storming the basics.

I'm becomeing a bit concerned frankly.

I could see where you're coming from although what other really major event could they announce it at? It's been eight years since the last edition came out so maybe they wanted to follow with what they did last time?

 

[Warbringer]

I'll start worrying when Morrus posts beta-testers comments saying similar things.N

You won't, as its a violation of the nda; Morrus knows that and will i'm sure enforce it by not allowing such comments.

Lets see 3 months for copy editing, layout, finalized art layout ( for 3 books!)
1 month for press setting, copy testing, reset, printing and shipping (assuming local)
2 weeks for co-ordinated world-wide shipping to distributors, retailers

So easily t-4/5, meaning rules finalized no later (and this is really late) than Early Feb

So 3 months to finalize exactly how the game plays from now!

It's tight for large concepts not locked down, but fine for tweaking

 

[Nifft]

You won't, as its a violation of the nda; Morrus knows that and will i'm sure enforce it by not allowing such comments.

Morrus signed an NDA?!

(I'm sure you know there were NDAs around back in the 3.0e days, too. And yet, there were anonymous rumors! On websites! One of which was named...)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Andor]

I don't think any RPG has ever been playtested as heavily as its creators would like, unless its creators have very low standards. But unless one of us runs an RPG publishing company of significant size, I don't think it's all that reasonable to be second-guessing WotC's business decisions like this. It's not like they haven't done this before; why do you think they don't know what they're doing?

Because I'm not sure who's driving the bus. There was a very telling post about revenue streams and targets that tells me that WotC is, regretably, not operating on the Blizzard model when it comes to 4e. That's probably not clear so I'll expand.

Blizzard (a computer game company) is famous for not shipping a game until they are happy with it. This is not the norm in the computer games industry where the usual attitude is "Ship it now and patch it later." They'll announce a game sure, and do internet hype and fan feedback and alpha and beta testing, but they do not announce a shipping date until they are sure that the game is actually ready to go.

WotC however announced a shipping date the very moment they told us the product was in development. Since then we have seen page counts fluctuate, designers discussing fundamental changes in game mechanics, confusion about how many classes will be included at shipping time and a lot of time spent telling us that the basics are sound and now it's just details. As the saying goes however, the devil is in the details. And when you don't playtest those details you can easily wind up missing something like "Hey when I take this feat and this talent I auto-hit for triple damage!"

Now don't get me wrong, there are some damm fine game designers working on 4e and I can't wait to see what they come up with. But I'm uncomfortable hearing things like "We have plenty of time left. We're working on the Fighter now." rather than "We will not go to print until we've locked it down and playtested the hell out of it."

And so I wonder, who is driving the bus? The designers or an accoutant? When 3e came out WotC didn't breath a word of it until they were sure they had an excellent product, and they did. However that was when WotC was flush with Magic money and was being run by some hard-core dedicated geeks and gamers. Peter Adkinson isn't in charge anymore. These aren't rich geeks remaking D&D for sheer love of the game (and an opportunity for profit to be sure although D&D has always been penny ante next to magic & pokemon.)

Again, I'm not screaming doom and gloom, but tight deadlines and strict schedules make mistakes and poor tuning more likely. And so I worry.

 

[Piratecat]

I'm not sure the Blizzard model applies. The publishing industry is not the computer game industry. You have tremendous lead times in the production, distribution and marketing of books. The computer game industry may have similar lead times, but in my experience they're generally not as far out or as firm.

To put things in historical perspective, 3e was also announced a year ahead of launch, and it to was in a substantial state of flux until about January of 2000. One difference is that 3e started external playtesting significantly earlier.

 

[Hairfoot]

that 3e started external playtesting significantly earlier.

But the changes between AD&D and 3E were far greater than the forecast shift from 3E to 4E. The system isn't being overhauled, just updated.

 

[Imaro]

I'm not sure the Blizzard model applies. The publishing industry is not the computer game industry. You have tremendous lead times in the production, distribution and marketing of books. The computer game industry may have similar lead times, but in my experience they're generally not as far out or as firm.

To put things in historical perspective, 3e was also announced a year ahead of launch, and it to was in a substantial state of flux until about January of 2000. One difference is that 3e started external playtesting significantly earlier.

Emphasis mine...

This is what worries me the most. I wonder if writing a rpg is like writing a story or novel. Yeah, it's good to self-edit...but often times people can be so close to what they write, design, etc. that it can be quite beneficial to get some outside perspective. The thing is the designers have, in so many words, said that externnal playtesting will only be used to address minor problems. Not sure if I think that's a good idea. If players are able to find flaws in the fundamental mechanics of the game (not saying they necessarily will), it should be addressed. To do otherwise is really a disservice to the game and your consumers.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Is it just me, or does it feel to anyone else like WoTC announced 4e kinda prematurely? The fluidity I'm perciveing about classes, races, spells, powers etc feels to me like they don't have anything like enough time to do adequate playtesting before the game ships. This is not quick run, print on demand stuff. They need to have the books locked down months before they ship, and it feels like they are still brain storming the basics.

I think they announced about when they promised they would...a year in advance(almost).

From everything I've read online, playtesting likely continues until the end of December or January. This means that January is likely spent 2 weeks reading through comments, compiling them, figuring out how many of the same concern they have. (Plus, I gather playtesting is in waves. Each month or 2 weeks the playtest groups are told to test one specific thing, the feedback is collected, the rules fixed and another wave is sent out asking everyone to test a new thing or even the same thing that's now been edited) Then the 2nd two weeks in January and possibly the first two weeks in February are spend editing the rules with all their feedback until they have an unedited copy.

Which gives them a rough, but "finished" copy of the rules a week in advance of D&D Experience where they run it for the first time. They may discover a final few issues when its run at the convention. So they edit it again with the final changes by mid March. 2 weeks of final editing for spelling and grammar and by the end of March the books are entirely done. Then sent in, maybe a month(2 at the most) before the book is in their hands at the end of April. Giving them a month and a half to distribute copies of the books to retailers before mid-June when they will likely be released. They only really need 2 weeks to distribute and can do that even with a month delay anywhere in the process.

I don't know from experience, but I gather that printing is still fairly fast these days.

This seems a likely timeline to me, but it is just all guesses.