Is it legal to Combine Feats?

[Water Bob]

I thought I knew the answer to this, but now I'm second guessing myself.

If a character has two or more Feats that apply to the same action or die roll (attack), do they all apply?

I was under the impression that only one Feat could be used at a time.



For example, if a character is using a bow and has both Point Blank Shot (+1 attack and damage on targets up to 30 feet) and Rapid Shot (allows a second attack with a ranged weapon), could the character use both feats when attacking a target that is at 30 feet or less? In this case, the character gets two attacks at the target (extra attack provided by the Rapid Shot Feat), and each attack is at an additional +1 attack and +1 damage (provided by the Point Blank Shot Feat).

I would think that the player should pick one or the other.

By the d20 rules, can both Feats be used?

Is this described anywhere in the rules?





Another example:

A character is using the Power Attack Feat to suffer a -1 penalty on his attack, but gain a +1 damage point if he hits. The character also has the Weapon Focus Feat which provides a +1 attack bonus if using the selected weapon.

Thus, combining the feats, the character would have no penalty (+0 attack as Focus and Power Attack cancel each other out)) on the attack but gain a +1 damage (provided by the Power Attack feat).

Again, I would think that the character should choose which feat he wants to use--that he can't use both.

What do the rules say?

 

[billd91]

The rules don't say that they can't be used together. They do say that the same feat bought more than once can't stack (which effectively means being used together). Any other preclusions, we can assume, would be specified.

In general, the feats state under what conditions they apply (weapon focus - when using the specified weapon; improved crit - when using the specified weapon; weapon specialization - when using the specified weapon). If those conditions all apply concurrently, you get to use them all. This is made pretty obvious in stat blocks for published NPCs because weapon focus and weapon specialization bonuses as well as the increased crit range thanks to improved crit are all added in to the appropriate part of the stat block. And if these feats can be used together, there's no reason to believe that rapid shot and point blank shot and precise shot can't all be used together as well when taking an extra bow attack at an opponent within 30 feet who happens to be in melee combat with someone.

The point is - the PC, by buying the feats, has paid for the privilege of using them whenever they apply. So it doesn't matter that the weapon focus is alleviating some of the power attack penalty in your example - he's paid both with his feat slots and gets to use them when power attacking with the specified weapon.

 

[delericho]

I thought I knew the answer to this, but now I'm second guessing myself.

If a character has two or more Feats that apply to the same action or die roll (attack), do they all apply?

Usually, yes. Bear in mind that the player has expended two resources to get both feats; it's not unreasonable, then, that he gets both benefits.

For example, if a character is using a bow and has both Point Blank Shot (+1 attack and damage on targets up to 30 feet) and Rapid Shot (allows a second attack with a ranged weapon), could the character use both feats when attacking a target that is at 30 feet or less? In this case, the character gets two attacks at the target (extra attack provided by the Rapid Shot Feat), and each attack is at an additional +1 attack and +1 damage (provided by the Point Blank Shot Feat).

I would think that the player should pick one or the other.

By the d20 rules, can both Feats be used?

Yes.

Is this described anywhere in the rules?

I'm not sure about that one, or indeed a general rule (I'd need to check my books, which I don't have to hand), but I'm almost entirely certain there is at least one example in the rules where it's done - applying two metamagic feats to a single spell.

The rules don't say that they can't be used together. They do say that the same feat bought more than once can't stack (which effectively means being used together).

Of course, in most cases you can't buy a single feat more than once - you either have it, or you don't.

 

[Water Bob]

I'm not so sure that it's legal to combine the feats. Here's the reason:

Point Blank Shot is the prerequisite for Rapid Shot. Therefore, everybody who has Rapid Shot also has Point Blank Shot. And that means that there is no instance where the effect of Point Blank Shot doesn't alter Rapid Shot. Rapid Shot is not used alone.

Also, intuitively, people complain about the game being broken at higher levels. Combining the effects of Feats contributes to over-power.

I really think that a character should pick one feat or the other.

And, the guy above who said to look at the action-requirement is dead-on-correct.

 

[delericho]

Point Blank Shot is the prerequisite for Rapid Shot. Therefore, everybody who has Rapid Shot also has Point Blank Shot. And that means that there is no instance where the effect of Point Blank Shot doesn't alter Rapid Shot.

Well, except when firing at a target more than 30 feet away.

Also, intuitively, people complain about the game being broken at higher levels. Combining the effects of Feats contributes to over-power.

Being over-powered at high levels is pretty much a non-issue for non-spellcasters in 3e - when the Wizard can reshape reality with a word, allowing the Fighter to combine a +1 from PBS with an extra attack from RS hardly rates!

 

[billd91]

I'm not so sure that it's legal to combine the feats. Here's the reason:

Point Blank Shot is the prerequisite for Rapid Shot. Therefore, everybody who has Rapid Shot also has Point Blank Shot. And that means that there is no instance where the effect of Point Blank Shot doesn't alter Rapid Shot. Rapid Shot is not used alone.

Also, intuitively, people complain about the game being broken at higher levels. Combining the effects of Feats contributes to over-power.

I really think that a character should pick one feat or the other.

And, the guy above who said to look at the action-requirement is dead-on-correct.

Except when rapid shot is used against someone more than 30' away. Then PB shot doesn't affect it at all.
Feats don't contribute that much to overpoweredness - particularly not the martial feats. Using them together helps keep martial characters, particularly the fighter, in the game and advancing in power while spellcasters get new spell levels. Most commentators would say that the spell power increases greatly outstrip the gains of martial characters using feats.

There are times when a specific action requirement does preclude feats from being used together, such as when they both require a standard action or one requires a standard action and another requires a full round action (such as multishot and rapid shot), but many feats like point blank shot, precise shot, weapon finesse, weapon focus, and weapon specialization don't require a particular action - just the use of a particular weapon or for particular conditions to apply and may be combined with other feats that also apply.

 

[ksbsnowowl]

The explicit example of using two feats together is in the Maximize Spell feat. From the SRD:

An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus one-half the normally rolled result.

There are several monsters printed in the MM3 (and later 3.5 books) that have Power Attack pre-applied to the monsters' attack routines. I'm sure some of them also have Weapon Focus or other feats that would demonstrably apply simultaneously. I can look through my books later tonight to provide an example.

Other examples of feats being used together: Shock Trooper and Combat Brute, both of which have aspects that only function when using Power Attack. If you could only use one feat at a time, those aspects of the two tactical feats would be useless.

Water Bob, no offense, but please, DO NOT be a DM until you understand this game better. You will just end up with confused players that hate your guts.

 

[Keith Robinson]

Is this described anywhere in the rules?

Personally, I look at it a different way: not, where does it say I'm allowed, but instead, where does it say I'm not?

Every feat has a set of rules stating the conditions required for use and no where (that I know of) does it say as a general rule that two feats don't apply at the same time, whether they use the same action/die roll or not.

Just my 2c!

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

I thought I knew the answer to this, but now I'm second guessing myself.

There's your trouble, actually.

If a character has two or more Feats that apply to the same action or die roll (attack), do they all apply?

Yes. Unless the feat itself describes limitations of its effects, or the rules for stacking bonuses apply, then you get to throw everything AND the kitchen sink into what you do.

I was under the impression that only one Feat could be used at a time.

You're too easily impressed.

I would think that the player should pick one or the other.

You got another think coming.

By the d20 rules, can both Feats be used?

It really wouldn't make sense NOT to allow use of multiple feats at once:
You walk a tightrope and you can be Agile, but you can't Dodge anything - or you Dodge, but then you can't benefit at all from your Agile feat. You can use Mounted Archery and halve your range penalties, but you can't then make any Point Blank Shots, or Far Shots, etc. You could cast a Silent Spell, but not a Silent AND Still Spell? You could take Great Fortitude for the fort save bonus - but then CAN'T use it with Endurance in a save vs. nonlethal damage? You can use Stunning fist to stun an opponent with an unarmed strike but if you do then you're considered UNARMED because you can't use it with Improved Unarmed Strike? You can pick any combat feat to use - but if you do then you can't use the simple Two-Weapon Fighting feat to reduce penalties for fighting with two weapons?

Yes, you can rule it your way if you like but you'd best be prepared for a lot of righteously annoyed players. Yes, piling on feats and bonuses of all kinds contributes to a ridiculous power-spiral, but that IS the way that 3E is supposed to work. It is part and parcel of the concept of "Rules Mastery" built into 3E where KNOWING which feats and which bonuses and abilities conspire to make your PC disgustingly powerful.

Is this described anywhere in the rules?

Not in so many words. At least not that I can recall. I think it was elementary enough that nobody thought it needed to be written down.

 

[Greenfield]

Rangers can get Rapid Shot, as part of their Archery advancement, without Point Blank Shot.

Even so, unless the two Feats specify the same type of bonus, such as Morale or Competence, they should stack.

Now some feats specify that they require a full round attack, which may limit what other feats can be applied at the same time.

The classic on this was Great Cleave and Whirlwind Attack, and the bag of chickens: Loose a small flock of birds near an opponent. Whirlwind attack, striking at each bird. When you kill it, Great Cleave into the actual opponent, effectively giving you some ridiculous number of attacks on the real target.

Except that Whirlwind calls for a full round attack action, and allows for no other attacks, such as the Cleave attacks.

So look out for that kind of creative BS, but otherwise, yeah they stack.