Is it OK to distribute others' OGC for free?

[DanMcS]

So what you're saying is that I'd do better if I was a puppy?

Did we just jump to RPG.net? Do you want this kitten to die? Buy Phil's books!

 

[philreed]

Did we just jump to RPG.net? Do you want this kitten to die? Buy Phil's books!

Okay, that was funny. I think it was clear that my "puppy" comment was in no way serious.

Actually, a very nice thing is that this discussion has been for more civilized than if it had taken place at rpg.net. I greatly appreciate that fact.

I _really_ wish that some other publishers would jump in here with numbers. I think that if more people knew in what kind of shape the publishers were in they'd better understand my viewpoint on the subject.

 

[Remathilis]

Actually, I think electronic book publishing is a more viable business model than publishing dead-tree RPGs. They need a bit of security (NOT the brain-dead DRM that currently exists, but it will get better), and will be off to the races.

With electronic books, a higher portion of the purchase price goes to the publisher. If they sell it direct, it ALL goes to the publisher, less bandwidth fees. They can afford to sell it really cheaply, and still make more money per-item than they would selling paper.

Electronic books can be produced smaller. You can make extraordinarily focused products (there are many on RPGnow that are a single prestige class, template, or whatever). If someone wants just that, they can buy it quick and easy. Print costs are getting such that only a hardcover does well, and nobody wants to buy a thin hardcover, you have to make them pretty chock-full. Huge development cost, lots of time to proofread and edit, many chances for errors to slip in.

The RPG market is really tiny, and very spread out. If you do a print run of 5000 books, how do you get them to where they will sell? There's no marketing data available for such a small market, but you have quite a bit of money sunk into those books. If they get to the wrong store, they won't ever sell, they'll sit on the shelf (I know that's not a direct problem for publishers, because they sell to distributors, and thence to retailers, but if your first book doesn't sell to customers, no retailer is going to order your second book). If you are selling electronically, they are available 24x7, to anyone that wants one. Never run out of stock, never be overstocked. No warehouse space to take care of.

Honestly, I think most RPG book publishers are kidding themselves. I don't think there's enough money in this industry to support as many people as want to work in it. Writing roleplaying games, like many creative endeavors, is probably destined to become a semiprofessional job at best, where people have day jobs and write in their spare time, or sell only over the internet.

In the next couple of years, all the books that are produced softcover will probably end up being produced as pdfs.

I think your wrong, and here's why...

I don't game in front of my computer. I do not own a laptop, PDA, or other sort of electronic portable gizmo. My eyes grow tired from reading even the most elegant long text on a computer screen, and I'm not dragging my monitor into the john while I think about my next NPC....

So that means to get the most use out of my product, I need to PRINT it out. I can go to a publishing house to do so, or I can print it off my printer. Both cost additional money.

Lets say I download Frostburn. Now, I go and pay $35.00 for the PDF. I copy it to a CD and print it at Kinkos for $16.00*, and place it in a binder for $2.99. I've added almost twenty dollars to the cost of my PDF and made the total price $64.00 roughly. OR I can print it myself for a four dollar ream of paper and the better part of a inkjet cartridge (@ 30 dollars for my Lexmark). OR I can go to FLGS and buy it for $34.99. OR I can order it off Amazon for $20.45 right now. Either way, the latter is cheaper and the quality of my print is much higher.

The only way PDF's or E-books are going to work is if in the next 10 years, handheld CPUS become more economical and commonplace. Until then, I still think PDFs will be a fringe item in the world of RPGs. I would rather spend the 30 bucks to buy a fully done PHB than waste 30 bucks printing a bland SRD document into a three-ring binder.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Phil, I know I'm going to be labeled the anti-Christ for this but consider leaving the OGL and using a variant. Nothing says you can't come up with the "OG pirate blocking License" that says any product that uses your work cannot consist of more than 50% derivative works. That would block Caergoth (sp?) from just cloning your PDFs and 3rd party publishers that simply create collections.

Anyone legitimately creating new works could use some of your material no problem and the license wouldn't block others from OGL-ing their content.

Quite simply, your business model depends on *never* running into an unscrupulous individual. Otherwise you need to switch to *gak* DRM PDFs.

I personally *loathe* DRM'd PDFs because they depend on an outside server that I don't control so I can't be confident of accessing my purchase. In your situation I would send 2 PDFs with each purchase, one DRMd that enables text search and the like but not text copying or printing and a DRM-free one that has all the information as images. More work but it'd let you sleep at night knowing that anyone who wants to convert your entire library will need to work at it.

Of course I'd be the mean one since I'd only OGC about 25% of my commercial library while it's still making, to use your terms, quarters and nickels and then OGC anything that dropped to pennies.

 

[pennywiz]

I think your wrong, and here's why...

< edit >

No offense, but you're not the primary future of the market. You represent part of the present, and almost all of the past, but as technology evolves and younger people grow up with that evolved technology, those people that require or even prefer a physically printed product will only decline. It's as inevitible as our declining dependance on fossil fuels. When all of the physical objections are removed, and the pricing and usage of tangible resources makes it ridiculous to own a physical respresentation or collection of ideas, electronic documents in one form or another will be the only sane alternative. Not today, not tomorrow, but far sooner than you think. Find the author of an early seventies article on the future of gaming or computers and just ask them.

 

[Cergorach]

But they at least put up some money and got them published where here there is no risk by whomever is putting them out for free downloads.

Well, i also spent a lot of cash on producing pdfs, overall i've spent close to $1000 on materials (fonts and art), a $1000 that i'll never see again. Does that count?

[edit]
There have been some interesting points in this thread, but by the time the topic reached page six there have been a couple of loops and nothing really new has been presented. Some people keep playing the right/wrong loop, there's no end until some one gets tired of the game.

I've said my say, i've listened to other views, but nothing that has changed my mind. Not suprising really, OGC assimilation is part of a 'strategy', a 'strategy' i thought up a long time ago, even before there was an OGL. Changing my mind after so many years would be a feat in itself. I'm not going to explain myself because doing so would be self defeating, but i'm convinced that if my ideas bear fruit then it would benefit the hobby. (please note that the hobby and the industry don't mean the same thing)

I think i'm not able to add anything usefull to this discussion at this point.
[/edit]

 

[BSF]

Wow - An interesting conversation if nothing else.

I am digesting it all and trying to correlate my thoughts. One thing that does strike me though is that the OGL seems to mean different things to different people.

I like to think that the OGL means that no one company will be solely responsible for the "health" of my gaming system. I like d20. With the OGL, I can see lots of good and/or interesting stuff put out there that WotC might not ever touch. And if WotC solely put out marginalized garbage, it wouldn't be the only material to buy.

As a secondary concern, good ideas that belong to companies that close won't necessarily disappear. Let's face it, good ideas and good business don't always go hand-in-hand. Sometimes a company closes despite good ideas because the business was mis-managed. As well, companies may close because the owner is unwilling/unable to continue running the business. With the OGL, there is the potential that those good ideas will live on. Assuming of course that those ideas were ever made OGC.

I do not subscribe to the idea that Unearthed Arcana shouldn't be distributed just because WotC published it. The reason is simple: They repackaged OGC from other sources as well as adding some of their own OGC. There is a secondary reason and that is most of the material in UA is less useful to players. There are a lot of things in that book that need to be implemented on a campaign-wide scale. (Are you going to let one PC use armor as DR and not the others? Will only one PC use wounds/vitality while the rest use standard HP?) As a DM, I could put together a primer for a campaign based on these forklift replacements of the rules and doing so would be easier if I could get them in electronic form. I don't _need_ them in electronic form, but it would be easier and I would be willing to pay for that convenience.

The compilations of OGC feats/spells/etc always made me roll my eyes. Less than stellar books that I don't need.

Does this mean that redistributing OGC material for free is desirable is a much more relevant question to me. IF somebody were to snarf all of Phil Reed's content and make it available for free, I would probably still not get it. I would much rather buy it from Phil. But that is just me. I have already bought some of Phil's PDFs because they look neat and I like Phil. To date, I have only been able to use material from one of his PDFs in a game (Campaign Planner if you are curious) but I keep looking for ways to use more. I want Phil to keep cranking stuff out because even if I don't use anything specific, it helps my idea factory. (Kind of like all the time I spend on EN World helps my idea factory.)

One general question for everyone though. Regardless of what we think the intents of the OGL might be, or how the OGL affects the market, what does the OGL mean for you? What is your 'personal stake' in the OGL? I have to wonder if there is a different perception between publishers and non-publishers. I suspect there is.

 

[barsoomcore]

One of the most interesting things about the OGL + electronic distribution is how it narrows the divide between "publisher" and "non-publisher".

Is somebody who posts an alternate class or magic system on the house rules forum a publisher? How about somebody who creates a website full of original material for people to use? Somebody who creates an online SRD product under proper licensing and everything?

Even if we say "publisher" = "person who distributes content with the intent to make money" it doesn't get much clearer. How much money? How much of a percentage of their income?

It gets confusing and I don't see where the line gets drawn.

For myself, I think the OGL is a great thing. I don't think, for example, that Phil's biggest problem is the OGL. I think it's thieves ripping him off by distributing his copywritten work without paying him. But OGC is stuff I can put up on my websites for my players to use, stuff I can incorporate into my own for-sale products (my upcoming article in EN Gamer uses some OGC, for example), and I don't have to worry about making sure the original creator knows me and approves of me. The law tells me what I can and cannot do, and that gives me a secure base to produce work from.

I'm not dependent on this work for my daily survival so loss of income is a very small deal to me. Of course it's going to be a much bigger problem for someone without any other income.

Unviable business models are a problem in every industry. Or rather, they're a reality. It's only a problem for people who can't recognize that their model doesn't work.

 

[BSF]

Barsoomcore, you bring up a very valid point. Where is the line drawn between "fan-created" work and being a "publisher". Who makes the distinction? What is the threshold at which you are considered a "publisher" rather than just an enthusiastic gamer?

Heh - I can see all sorts of issues with those questions. Remember DTRPG's initial press releases? Let's not go there.

Still, I am interested in what people think of the OGL. If people want to post their thoughts, that would be great. If they also want to qualify them with how they picture themselves using the OGL, that is more information.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

Find the author of an early seventies article on the future of gaming or computers and just ask them.

Find the people that founded startups based on e-books and ask them where the market is going. Start at your local soup kitchen.

It will happen, no doubt. But there are serious technological hurdles that have to be overcome, and so far haven't. We're at least 10 years away from e-books even being common, and a lot more before they are ubiquitous. There's a lot of time yet for small publishers to make a living in the print world, or lose their shirts in the e-world.

And technological hurdles aside, there are legal and commercial realities. Some sort of consumer friendly DRM has to be worked out, for one thing, and that takes cooperation amongst a lot of folks. A format will have to be agreed on, international legalities hammered out. Just today there was an article on /. about the US and Australia wrangling over the Project Gutenberg and 'Gone with the Wind', since the copyright has expired down under and not here.

Rampant piracy will make the content makers curl up in a little ball and refuse to play, and it will take a lot of nibbling away at their consumer base by the little guys before they will come back out and play.

Mindless obeisance to our corporate overlords isn't the answer, but this 'information wants to be free' crap isn't either.