Is it OK to distribute others' OGC for free?

[Psion]

Now, does WotC still sell Monster Manuals? Does Core Book III still sell? I think it does, despite 90%+ of it's content being in the SRD's, does

I absolutely agree. For the same reason that I think that WotC is smoking illegal pharmecuticals if they think a PDF of frostburn is worth $35: A printed product is added value over the content.

I think that folks like Phil here have a lot more to fear from the activity of re-releasing OGC as free, because, well, there is much less distinction between two electronic products. If one is free (and legal), people really don't have much incentive beyond sympathy for Phil to buy his version.

I don't think the solution is to close everything you can. I rather prefer the approach of "closing fluff". Fluff is added value and it is rarely intrusive into people's game or reuse by other publishers (or hobbyists.)

 

[smetzger]

Why 2? philreed's data (just a few pages back) clearly indicates that products earnings for pdfs don't substantially decrease for years. 1 & 3 are hence enough to produce lost sales and revenues for the publisher.
And philreed's data also shows that offering a stripped ogc in RTF brought sales of actual product to zero. Zero. And that without 1; just 3 is enough.
These are facts, not speculations, not thoughts. Just facts.

I concede that that applys to PDFs.

Print products are a bit different and I think all 3 still need to be met for it to adversly effect the sale of the product.

I still think its moot because Kazaa makes it easier for people to post the whole product with OGC and closed content. Becuase of the prevelance of Kazaa I don't think there will ever be a comprehensive online archive of OGC.

 

[barsoomcore]

I think pennywiz's point is a good one: it might be true that publishing OGC PDFs is just NOT a viable business model. And that will be too bad, especially for folks like Phil who have been putting out so much great stuff.

But that doesn't mean A) that distributing OGC is unethical, or B) that the OGL is bad for the industry.

A) -- supporting Phil's current lifestyle != ethical. We all make choices every day that have a negative impact on somebody else's bottom line. Every time we shop at Amazon we help to kill our local bookstores. Every time we skimp on a tip we help to reduce our waitress' standard of living. We can't avoid making those kinds of choices. Phil (and many others) are gambling that there's enough value in what they provide that people will pay them for it. They may be right, and they may be wrong -- only time will tell.

Note that this has NOTHING to do with downloading Phil's actual PDFs off Kazaa -- that's outright illegal and has NOTHING to do with OGL. He still owns the copyright on those products and for people to give them away is unethical AND illegal.

B) That this particular business model is flawed doesn't in any way suggest that the industry is in danger. The industry isn't dominated by people selling OGC PDFs -- it's dominated by people selling partly OGC hardcover books. I haven't seen any data suggesting those publishers are pulling out of the OGL. It does look to some degree like the OGL makes it difficult to make large amounts of money publishing PDFs.

But you know what? Before the OGL, it wasn't possible to make ANY amount of money published D&D-compatible PDFs. Not without risking a lawsuit from WotC -- and if you're a small press publisher, you probably wouldn't survive a legal tangle with WotC no matter if you were right or not.

So the problem CLEARLY isn't the OGL. It's the fact that modern technology makes it trivially easy to redistribute electronic data. Everyone involved in the content creation business is facing this reality, and new models are going to have to emerge. It will be interesting to see where things go.

I hope none of this comes across as disrespectful to Phil, who's a great designer, a great writer and has made some of my favourite d20 products. He deserves to make large amounts of money. I'm just not sure it will be possible for him to do so publishing PDFs. Neither does he. Neither does anyone else, because none of us know what will happen tomorrow.

We'll see.

 

[pennywiz]

I absolutely agree. For the same reason that I think that WotC is smoking illegal pharmecuticals if they think a PDF of frostburn is worth $35: A printed product is added value over the content.

To some but not to everyone. There are a growing number of customers who prefer an electronic product, not so large as to make electronic publishing preferable, maybe, but obviously enough that make it potentially a living.

I think that folks like Phil here have a lot more to fear from the activity of re-releasing OGC as free, because, well, there is much less distinction between two electronic products. If one is free (and legal), people really don't have much incentive beyond sympathy for Phil to buy his version.

To Phil's strength (and other PDF publishers), a much smaller fan base can sustain a company that has less overhead and more direct distribution channels. A print publisher might need to sell several thousand to make the same profit that an electronic publisher can make with a much smaller customer base.

I don't think the solution is to close everything you can. I rather prefer the approach of "closing fluff". Fluff is added value and it is rarely intrusive into people's game or reuse by other publishers (or hobbyists.)

I agree and also think that there are many functional features that a regular electronic publisher can add to increase value. A re-packager might not have the time or capability of adding a great many funtionaility features because they can be very time consuming or require the expense of a software investment. There are many ways to create inexpensive PDFs but I think we'll see the top electronic publishers using the better software to their advantage (like 0one games, for example).

 

[pennywiz]

I concede that that applys to PDFs.

Print products are a bit different and I think all 3 still need to be met for it to adversly effect the sale of the product.

I still think its moot because Kazaa makes it easier for people to post the whole product with OGC and closed content. Becuase of the prevelance of Kazaa I don't think there will ever be a comprehensive online archive of OGC.

I think most people in this thread are presupposing that piracy is a separate issue that we are setting aside for the sake of this discussion, though your point is well made.

 

[Yair]

I concede that that applys to PDFs.

Print products are a bit different and I think all 3 still need to be met for it to adversly effect the sale of the product.

I still think its moot because Kazaa makes it easier for people to post the whole product with OGC and closed content. Becuase of the prevelance of Kazaa I don't think there will ever be a comprehensive online archive of OGC.

And I concede that for a print product all 3 points are needed; probably. No hard data that I am aware of here, but it stands to reason.

As for KaZaa... I think many people do care about legalities. Not to steer this thread into that direction, but personally I use filesharing yet definitely do purchase the products I use (and some I don't), and am very much interested in legal free sources of OGC. Those that use KaZaa to illegally use material are simply not part of the market - they are not buying *anything*, and are hence irrelevant to the gaming industry.
I believe there is sufficient interest and need, from publishers and private users, and that SRD like compilations will be created. Why, this whole thread started because someone is doing just that...

 

[kigmatzomat]

IANA d20 author. I do, however, earn a few thou a year writing for a computer magazine/website. I've been interacting with the GPL and various copy-lefts for over a decade both writing and using software so I think I have a more developed opinion.

OGL is *NOT* for everyone. There are well over two dozen "open" licenses for software, expect a similar evolution for books. OGL is similar but not identical to the Creative Commons license which has oddly become popular with a former RIAA chief.

OGL is best for core frameworks that are functional on their own but somehow incomplete. The SRD is a game system but it is not a full RPG. There's no flavor, no style. So you buy style. A company might GPL a computer game engine but sell all the levels, critters, and story lines.
It's a "free razor, buy the blades" model.
It works for WotC because it means cottage industry will handle most of the low-volume projects and be happy to do it while they can focus on mass-market projects. The cost of the low-volume projects was deemed greater than lost book sales. (I do not own a 3.5 PHB/DMB, I use the RSRD. I do own a 3.5 MM and XPH. If I did not have access to the RSRD to help back-convert the books to my 3.0 game I would be disinclined to buy them.)

The OGL and GPL is pretty much your enemy when it comes to making money on stand-alone products. Small software utilties and RPG adventures really aren't suited for completely open distribution when you expect to turn a profit.
In those cases OGL a few stylish items that capture the flair and style of your product. You can then use it as "viral marketing" since it will replicate itself indefinitely. I'd recommend including a good illustration that includes your logo under d20-esque license ("unaltered may be used with this OGL creature") to ensure you get the credit.

The time to OGL/GPL these small products are when you intend to abandon the product *or* when sales drop to dangerously low levels. Warehousing costs money so past a certain point you just want to move that last crate of books. You may end up "giving out" the equivalent of 4 crates of books in the process but you sold those books and aren't getting a warehouse bill.
OGL/GPL those out of print books to ensures it remains in the public meme as advertising for other products and create good will.

IMO, the folks from Expeditious Retreat are somewhat off the deep end for making their MMS:WE OGC prior to the date their PDF/print sales drop off. I pray that it doesn't burn them because I thoroughly enjoy MMS:WE and they accepted criticism on another product with good grace. I suspect they judged the good will generated by the act would be repaid in future sales vs. OGL hemmorage.

I have zero sympathy for individuals who OGL materials at this point in time and whinge about the ramifications. If you did it the first few months, okay, I'll cut you some slack because there are a number of non-obvious results to the OGL. Now, however, there are several years worth of history to mine.

There is one other reason to OGL a work: poison pill. Many of us have heard of RPG/software teams develop an idea and then lose it to canny businessmen. OGL ensures you will have the ability to continue your work even if your company gets stolen beneath you.
Work on OGL-derivatives also blocks the use of "concept contracts" that say someone else owns all your ideas. Even if they own your idea, they cannot de-OGL the work. Anyone about to sign such a contract would do well to OGL their pet projects prior to signing.

Sorry for the length.

 

[DanMcS]

I think pennywiz's point is a good one: it might be true that publishing OGC PDFs is just NOT a viable business model. And that will be too bad, especially for folks like Phil who have been putting out so much great stuff.

snip

I hope none of this comes across as disrespectful to Phil, who's a great designer, a great writer and has made some of my favourite d20 products. He deserves to make large amounts of money. I'm just not sure it will be possible for him to do so publishing PDFs. Neither does he. Neither does anyone else, because none of us know what will happen tomorrow.

Actually, I think electronic book publishing is a more viable business model than publishing dead-tree RPGs. They need a bit of security (NOT the brain-dead DRM that currently exists, but it will get better), and will be off to the races.

With electronic books, a higher portion of the purchase price goes to the publisher. If they sell it direct, it ALL goes to the publisher, less bandwidth fees. They can afford to sell it really cheaply, and still make more money per-item than they would selling paper.

Electronic books can be produced smaller. You can make extraordinarily focused products (there are many on RPGnow that are a single prestige class, template, or whatever). If someone wants just that, they can buy it quick and easy. Print costs are getting such that only a hardcover does well, and nobody wants to buy a thin hardcover, you have to make them pretty chock-full. Huge development cost, lots of time to proofread and edit, many chances for errors to slip in.

The RPG market is really tiny, and very spread out. If you do a print run of 5000 books, how do you get them to where they will sell? There's no marketing data available for such a small market, but you have quite a bit of money sunk into those books. If they get to the wrong store, they won't ever sell, they'll sit on the shelf (I know that's not a direct problem for publishers, because they sell to distributors, and thence to retailers, but if your first book doesn't sell to customers, no retailer is going to order your second book). If you are selling electronically, they are available 24x7, to anyone that wants one. Never run out of stock, never be overstocked. No warehouse space to take care of.

Honestly, I think most RPG book publishers are kidding themselves. I don't think there's enough money in this industry to support as many people as want to work in it. Writing roleplaying games, like many creative endeavors, is probably destined to become a semiprofessional job at best, where people have day jobs and write in their spare time, or sell only over the internet.

In the next couple of years, all the books that are produced softcover will probably end up being produced as pdfs.

 

[philreed]

I hope none of this comes across as disrespectful to Phil, who's a great designer, a great writer and has made some of my favourite d20 products. He deserves to make large amounts of money. I'm just not sure it will be possible for him to do so publishing PDFs. Neither does he. Neither does anyone else, because none of us know what will happen tomorrow.

Didn't feel that way to me at all. In fact, your praise just makes me feel better. Thanks! I needed that -- especially since I've been having a lot of problems with my wrist and just walked through a fire ant mound (while wearing sandels).

I think I can make PDF publishing succeed. It certainly has a greater chance of success than print publishing does.

 

[philreed]

If one is free (and legal), people really don't have much incentive beyond sympathy for Phil to buy his version.

So what you're saying is that I'd do better if I was a puppy?

Again, I have no problem with people using my released OGC in various products. I expect that sort of thing to happen. And a treasure or spell or whatever here and there doesn't bother me. It's the wholesale collection and release of products that has me -- to be honest -- terrified.

After all, would you want to give up a job like this?