Is it OK to distribute others' OGC for free?

[WizarDru]

How long will this continue? People have only been publishing electronic books for a couple of years, compared to 550-odd years since the printing press. Give electronic books a couple more years.

I have no idea. I do know that until PDFs can provide the same functionality as print, across the board, it will not replace it. The requirements to access a PDF are still relatively strict, compared to print. I love PDFs, but they are not even in the same league. How many PDFs have passed the 10,000 mark in sales? Again, I have no idea, but I'd suspect precious few, if any.

I don't think these are relevant details. PDFs and books both provide material to use in role-playing games. Planes and trains both take people cross country. Planes didn't replace trains because they ran better on tracks and carried coal better. Similarly, PDFs won't replace books because they are better at being book-like; they'll replace books because they can be produced cheaper, sold for more profit for the publisher while being more affordable for the consumer, and provide the exact same information as a book, in addition to things books can't do, like hyperlinking and copy-and-pasting.

That's a good point, but I think your analogy misses some key points. Planes didn't replace trains, for a start. They have supplanted trains for chief form of long distance travel, but for short distance travel and for regional commuting, train is still king. Not to mention that rail still carries the majority of certain types of goods across the US. Coal isn't transported by truck or plane, because it's more efficient by rail. The planes success is guaged by the fact that it could travel vast distances in a relativley short time. What takes days by rail takes hours by plane, making a day-trip from NYC to LA possible. In that case, the plane DID 'out-train' the train, which had, in turn out-paced previous methods (such as horse-back and stage-coach travel).

PDFs do offer features books don't have, and they are great strengths. But I don't that PDFs will ever match the popularity of the printed format unless they became much easier to use for non-technical people, be able to be used in a wider aspect (some folks don't feel like lugging a PC everywhere...and if they're going to print out the entire thing, why not pay for the professional binding and nicer paper?), and be consistent. My D&D core books are still just as usable as they were four years ago, while I have expeienced problems with different PDFs working with different readers (and this isn't even considering DRM issues).

The utility of the PDF has to match the utility of a printed book, or exceed in enough in a number of situations to make me (and, I think, most folks) put up with it's idiosyncracies. Cell-phones, for example, decimated pagers....but that's because they were superior in functionality in most fashions. The same can be said for DVDs and VCRs. But HDTV hasn't replaced regular TV, and isn't likely to do so, any time soon. Neither has credit/debit cards completely replaced money. Could it happen? It's possible. But it won't happen quickly.

 

[smetzger]

But they at least put up some money and got them published where here there is no risk by whomever is putting them out for free downloads.

What does 'risk' have to do with this? Why would it be more ethical to strip out the UA OGC, put some new artwork in and sell it as a PDF than to give it away?

 

[DanMcS]

But if 3E becomes unsupportable because of it (which admittedly, is all highly theoretical) it will get smaller generation by generation. How tiny of a minority is Diaglo here? That could be the OGL market twenty-five years. Could be.

Nobody can publish original D&D books, or provide support for them. People can publish 3e-style books forever if they want to, plus update them, mod the rules, whatever. 3e will never have to go out of print. So I don't know that it will necessarily get that much smaller. Yes, if 4e is completely incompatible, that will draw away some people, but you won't have the "forced" upgrade because you can no longer buy products.

I don't think 4e will be completely incompatible, though, nor do I think it would be closed. An incremental, open upgrade style encourages people to keep buying the books, cyclically. I never bought 3.5 core books, but I own Eberron, and it's easy enough to use with my 3.0 books and the 3.5 SRD. I've perused the SRD, and I like 3.5. And since I want to run an eberron game soon, I'll probably pick up the XPH, and I'll probably end up buying a MMIII or even a 3.5 PHB, even though I've resisted 3.5 core books to this point, because the cross-compatability is luring me in. Darn it, I can see it happening, and I'm still going to buy them

 

[Ranger REG]

Sorry GR, i really like you guys, but i'm going to redistribute your OGC.

To that I must ask why? What purpose -- other than making good use of their OGC to make your own product -- does it serve? Are you benefiting other publishers who can't buy said product and access the OGC? Are you doing to take potential sales money away from GR's business? Or is there some kind of personal satisfaction or pleasure for exercising the use of the OGL knowing there is no legal repercussion?

 

[philreed]

What does 'risk' have to do with this? Why would it be more ethical to strip out the UA OGC, put some new artwork in and sell it as a PDF than to give it away?

I really don't think that ethics has anything to do with it.

Consider this. If it becomes accepted practice that OGC will be stripped out of products and released for free what number of people will stop buying products and just wait for the material to be released at no charge? Material that is collected and sold doesn't have the same effect since you must still purchase a product to get the OGC.

This means that the material retains financial value. Posting material for free greatly devalues the material posted and possibly has a negative effect on the sale of other OGC products.

 

[Aristotle]

I've been trying very hard not to respond to this thread again, as I'm really not looking to change anything. I just wanted to offer my personal opinion. But...

I've seen something mentioned a few times (not sure if its been the same person or multiple) and I just wanted to comment on it. Its been offered that the free dispersal of OGC might envigorate more people to purchase the original book. That seems really optimistic to me. Most gamers I know would take the free material and run. They wouldn't even consider buying the original book. I don't think this is because I hang out with direputable people. I think its human nature to want to pay as little as possible for as much as possible, after all we've all gone through that "poor gamer" phase.

I've seen several people say they have the book already and they just want the PDF for easy reference. But those folks have to realize that in order to make the material publicly available to them it has to be available to the people who just want something for free.

But, as I've already said. It's legal. And if a publisher wants to distribute a great deal of OGC they have to be ready to handle the consequences. I don't think it's right, but it's legally correct.

 

[Ranger REG]

If people or companies want to use the license(s), they have to understand how they work and accept the terms. It's not an argument, it's the fact of the matter.

And so if they get burned by the licenses, they might as well drop it? I mean, there is no sense continuing in that direction, if people are just ripping your product (OGC-only) and redistribute it, which can result less and less sale of the product.

Don't be foolish. Plenty of companies have figured out how to use the licenses and not leave themselves open to bancruptcy. Some actually figure it out without utilizing an attorney, though that isn't recommended.

True, they had to work hard at it, perhaps using Monte Cook's "jigsaw" model so that only the most serious publishers determined to make good use of OGC for their own products can access it. For the lazy rippers, they're not going to sift through the mix of OGC, PI, and copyrighted material, the same way a burglar is not going to waste time trying to remove each panel of window louvre in order to break into the house.

Is the sky falling again? I guess the winners will be the ones who learn how to sell sky.

"Factions battling inside WotC!' Hah! What's the going threat level color for that?

Faction may not be the appropriate words but those who left WotC have noticed two such "camps" have been formed informally. Some that wished Ryan Dancey should never have proposed Open Gaming in the first place, and are looking for more reasons to reaffirm their stance.

Granted, the license(s) will stay, but will it continue in the next edition of D&D? Will we see more more material added to the SRD in the future after 4e? One can only hope that those who support & promote OGC still remain employed at the head of Wizards of the Coast.

 

[Numion]

To that I must ask why? What purpose -- other than making good use of their OGC to make your own product -- does it serve? Are you benefiting other publishers who can't buy said product and access the OGC? Are you doing to take potential sales money away from GR's business? Or is there some kind of personal satisfaction or pleasure for exercising the use of the OGL knowing there is no legal repercussion?

He's just doing a service to all roleplayers who might want that content. The open gaming license allows him to do just that.

It's not like anyone put a gun to GRs head and forced them to use the damn license. Publishers are somehow trying to have their cake and eat it too. Thats not how the license works, nor how it should work.

 

[Ranger REG]

He's just doing a service to all roleplayers who might want that content. The open gaming license allows him to do just that.

For free? Of course, all roleplayers would jump at such a thing. If say, your service (whatever job you are currently doing) is free, I'd jump at that chance. But once you decided you want to get paid for your service, I'll just find someone else willing to offer for free.

I don't care if you had to buy material for your job. I don't care about the time and resource you put into your job. I don't care if you have bills to pay or children to support. If you offer it free, I'll come. If you offer it fee, I'll go look elsewhere.

 

[Crothian]

He's just doing a service to all roleplayers who might want that content. The open gaming license allows him to do just that.

If they want it they should buy it. These arguements are just like the poeple who say its okjay to download the illegal PDFs of the books. Its just people wanting something for nothing and not caring what effect it has on anyone but themselves.